Hermetic Lore for FFH DI5

Lplate

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I thought you would be releasing the scout/hunter this turn, That way we could write about the founding of the Religion next turn without worry.

Can whoever is next editing the save include a Calabim hunter on the headland to the west of the Sidar scout? I'll write up something about the Lanun tricking him into paying for passage across and add it to my post.

Edit: Adding In Vino Falsitas in the story thread to explain the hunter.
 

Elder Methyl

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The FoL is the worship of Nature, not a specific god, Although all of them revere Cernunnos to an extent, So any gods can feel free to meddle in it and its followers. I see the Vampires as followers of Camulos and Junil. Flauros will have been a man of his word since the Age of Ice and his Oath to protect and provide for the Humans in exchange for their servitude. The Druids will have a sect of the FoL that follows Sucellus and Amathaon, the gods of Life and Fertility.

This gives me some ideas...
 

Ravus_Sol

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This gives me some ideas...

Go ahead! :lol:

Also, Does anyone mind if I do a extra update tonight or tomorrow to slot in all the extra little things that need doing? I know we aren't supposed to edit twice but I'm unsure who is left to edit this turn.
 

Ravus_Sol

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Sure man, whatever you think is necessary.
On a side note, does anyone have any plans for the Balseraphs? I would imagine Esus would be closely affiliated with them for their tricky methods. There could be an interesting quest line about a spy turning out to be Loki and wrecking havock.

Officially the Balseraphs are under the Patronage of Mammon. But that god has gone silent. But that Civilization is so crazy I don't think it matters anyone can mess around in that pond if they so wish.

As for Loki, I believe he is insane mute. So while he could be a silent Ninja I'm not sure he could be a spy.

-

I did want to bring something else up;


Silent but Neccessary
There are some gods that are going to be neccessary to use in limited amounts. The leaders of the god coalitions and the opposites of active gods for instance. We have most of the opposites, Lugus vs Esus. Junil vs Camulos. But Bhall doesn't have Danalin active at the moment, Sirona does not have Agares to oppose her nor does Cernunnos have Mulcarn or an Avatar of Ice active.

On top of that Agares is the main leader of Evil. Also the main leader of the neutrals, Dagda is also silent.

I'd like to play lip service to a few of the gods until someone steps in. We already plan to do so to Agares, because he is so important and linked to so many gods backstories. Seduced Bhall, Killed Cernunnos's Son and twinned him, Sirona believes he can be redeemed etc. For now he's just hovering like a shadow in the storylines. But eventually if the Ashen Veil is founded he might need some words spoken from his own lips.

I only bring this up because while writing about Cernunnos's background and future I get the feeling he's going to get around. I've already used the God of Life in one of my updates before thinking about it. I'd like to have people open to idea of using some of these silent gods as long as it's okay'd by everyone else in this thread as well. As in actually including them as characters not just silent shadows.

Sucellus is his creator so he will end up mentioned. The old god of life Nemed may get mentioned now and again and thus the god of death who held that precept and passed it onto Sucellus. Agares twinned him so he needs using in parts. Mulcarn and Ice is the opposite of nature and its gradual change, also Mulcarn slew Sucellus. On top of all that Cernunnos will have known many of the Archangels running around too.

Thoughts?
 

Lplate

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There are some gods that are going to be neccessary to use in limited amounts. The leaders of the god coalitions and the opposites of active gods for instance. We have most of the opposites, Lugus vs Esus. Junil vs Camulos. But Bhall doesn't have Danalin active at the moment, Sirona does not have Agares to oppose her nor does Cernunnos have Mulcarn or an Avatar of Ice active.

I'd like to have people open to idea of using some of these silent gods as long as it's okay'd by everyone else in this thread as well. As in actually including them as characters not just silent shadows.

I agree with using the other Gods as characters - I've already got Mammon in the Mega Plot. It would be strange for them to be silent as some stories develop.

There's always the hope that more players will get involved - the threads have been a lot more active since Verdian posted his last save.

I thought Bhall's opposite was Mulcarn - when she fell, his main opposition wasn't around to block him bringing about the age of Ice.
The Age of Ice ended about 60 years before the game begins, so it's understandable that there isn't an active Precept of Ice.
 

apenpaap

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On top of that Agares is the official leader of Evil. Also the main leader of the neutrals, Dagda is also silent.

Fixed that for you. :p There is much speculation about him being only a figurehead for a certain goddess nowadays, after all. But you're right that we'll probably need to use him and some other gods as characters sooner or later.
 

Derf

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Unless someone takes over one of the open divinities later on, I think we should consider them as 'loanable characters' - ones we can borrow in addition to our own, claimed god to further our ends, with two caveats:
1: Since due to this, they'll technically be being run by all of us, anything the loaned god(s) do would have to be agreed on by at the very least a few of us - to keep them in character, and from doing anything too blatently aligned with the borrowing god.
2: Anything these gods are doing should be kept as open and clear as possible. If someone else is borrowing them, they need to know everything they're up to so they don't step on the toes of another gods plans for them - and also so that in the event someone steps up and takes them on, they'll be able to understand what their god has been up to and why. From there, they're as free to reveal or conceal their following plans as much as they like, just like the rest of us.
 

Calavente

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I thought Bhall's opposite was Mulcarn - when she fell, his main opposition wasn't around to block him bringing about the age of Ice.
I kinda remember that Bhall was Mulcarn opposite... but that was before the fall.
after the fall, the oppositions changed.. Danalin as the principle of water opposed Bhall and mulcarn became opposed by.... ??? can't remember.
 

Ravus_Sol

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I am swearing right now.

The one time I don't copy all of the message before trying to post. Stupid thing. I hate the internet in Australia I really do.

Anyway I'm glad to see lots of agreement on using the Silent gods. As to the Ice vs Nature thing. Yes there is a picture somewhere showing the spheres of magic in a layout with their opposites. Water opposes fire. But Ice opposes Nature. Most likely due to the statis and unchanging nature of ice versus the constant gradual change of nature. It's why Sucellus the first god of nature was chosen to go into Erebus during the age of Ice to battle Mulcarn.

Plus while Mulcarn is dead some of his aspects survive. His Archangel is still trapped on a Isle somewhere, his breath of winter survives in Barnaxus the Golum hero of the Dwarves and the Precept of Ice has imbued a human with its power in Auric. Not to mention the slumbering Ice Dragon Drifta. So story potential is still there.

But in other news;

JUNIL


Seated in his chamber, the archangel called upon Cernunnos.

"So it has come to this."

"What do you mean?"

"War is inevitable. Bhall, the treacherous, weak goddess who has fallen from her grace, wills the Bannor's destruction in fire."

"And why should the fate of your people concern me, Junil?"

"The world will burn if she has her way. Your beloved forests will be no more. The screams of woodland folk will cut your heart and your ears. Your power will wane, your cause will die. Your ancient lands will not be remembered in history books for those who follow unholy fire have no care for such things. Barbarian rabble for the most. Yet they are powerful..."

"I see..."

"Join me in holy crusade against those who wish death upon all order and the destruction of nature. My people have not the strength of orcs, nor the speed of wolf riders. But I tell you this. Our will is relentless! We are a people forged in the fires of hell! Bhall shall bring fire to us, but we shall smelt weapons of iron!"

I have no idea who Cernunnos is meant to be talking to in this scene. Is it the God of Law himself Junil? Or his Angel Sabethial who leads the Bannor from a vault beneath the capital?

I quite like the idea of Cernunnos giving aid to Junil. Cernunnos is currently annoyed at those gods that are bending the compact. It's natural then that he would be on good terms with the one god whom has never even attempted to bend it. Junil only interacts with Erebus via his Archangel whom leads the Bannor and through mortal means.

But I'm not sure what aid he is asking for. Cernunnos has no nation he patrons himself. His religion worships nature itself not him specifically and can have a pantheon of deities. He is a god to everyone and no-one. While he is against forced forest fires, those caused by intervention, nature LIKES natural fires. Some trees can only breed and grow in the aftermath of fires after all and Cernunnos is a god of balanced nature not the nature of growth that his lord was.

So yes, I'm happy to help, but some clarification before I whip together a response would be nice. :)
 

Bad Player

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Im medling, but maybe Elder methyl you could somehow not give the settler...
with camulos' settler and the former one from cerwiden that would make 3 settlers... in 100 turns... which is a good pace and it might be too much
for him to manage 4 cities so soon. (well, some are settlements so it balances a bit... but still)

further, to keep in line with the text you announced for the "swanway" warrior : "learning each month a skill against each evil god" ...
I would propose that you give more than "only" demon slaying... maybe you can give also "undead slaying" and "Orc slaying" ? orcs and undead being also linked to evil gods/angels.. (further orc-slaying would help explain the bit of him killing 3 orcs axemen when going out alone ...)


for the settler : despite what I said before, maybe its ok..

otherwise, to illustrate the "swanmay girl" coming with the warrior : you could give him an adept with ljos or svart race (so it is female) (adept is not too much as He already have KoE) and some lvl 1 spells in one or two of life/creation/spirit/other good spheres... maybe further give her a bonus tierII spell in life/creation/spirit...

To balance it, make her already have lvl 4 (so it increases the xp she would need to get future promotions... (to compensate for the free promotions) + it will reduce the passive xp gain ; but with lvl 4 she would be able to upgrade to mage when sorcery is researched even withno/few xp gain.)

however, that would count as an "hero/chosen" unit for you.... hard choice..

my 0.2

Remember that I'm giving out some orc slaying promotions to all units with 10(?) or more XP.
 

Bad Player

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It will be a second before I can sit and invest time into this, but a couple of quick things-

Most of the other civs on the map have 3-4 cities. Kuritotates are near the bottom of the scoreboard. I don't think anything is wrong with the surplus of settlers right now, especially considering that they'll just be settlements at first. Did Veridian address if he's okay with conquering cities? Ultigar is a really nice city spot, hopefully he can grab it.

And there was an earlier discussion about if we should be explicit in our quest rewards... Personally, I'm leaning to state a general reward in the write up, but I'd like to be vague about the details. That way, it can be variable, depending on how Veridian performs the tasks. For example, there's the possibility that the Calabim might go and kill our angel (that'd be an interesting event) and if/when Veridian attacks the Calabim I was going to vary rewarding additional units by how he did in his conquest (if he was too brutal) and the state of the map at the time. I also like the idea of him not so much choosing between rewards, but choosing which god he trusts and wants to earn the favor of. Considering that I'm doing the joint quest thing, I want to make sure you're alright with that, Elder Methyl.

Again, I'm going to give a day or two to think about everything when I'm less busy, but would gifting Construction as a reward for Way of the Wise be too strong or inappropriate? This is a pretty pivotal moment, so I don't think that a single angel unit would quite be enough of a reward. Also, I'm concerned that with the technologies we've been pushing on Veridian, he'll be falling behind in military technologies. This way, with construction, when he gets Trade he'll have Chargers available to him.
Gifting a whole tech for a quest seems like a very big reward!
 

Calavente

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I forgot about that :D
but Eldermethyl may give orc slaying to this unit even if he has less than 10 xp ... no ? o_O ?
well that was to say :
-"demon slaying" promotion for staying 9turns...
-a settler for staying 1 more turn.
it seems unbalanced ....

(and demon slaying only for "learning each moon a way to fight the evil gods" seems cheap)

a settler for staying 9 turns... and demon slaying for staying a further month... would have been much more coherent.
it doesn't change the result... but feels more logical
 

apenpaap

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I have made my post. Derf, I edited your bit so it was from Ceridwen's point of view again, but I hope you'll post the original version of it in the thread too, it's fun seeing things from different perspectives.
 

Derf

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Put up a supplementary post, containing Camulos' side of Ceridwen's visit, a secret meeting and a suspiciously familiar story happening in the Amurite lands.

The last, I plan to repeat eventually in all the other nations - though they won't have the same reasons or results as Lothbrok's appearance in Aerie had. Each of them has their own separate reasons for being sent there and their own tasks there, which I'm keeping to myself for the moment, except the more general purpose which is to start bringing more aggression to the world through their actions.
 

Bad Player

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Ravus Sol,

I'd planned on letting a Calabim scout loose close to the Kuriotates lands in the next God Turn to make sure that the Kuriotates had at least met them before the war with the Amurites started.
Seeing as the Calabim are about to found FoL, it's probably a better story if a Disciple of Leaves has chosen to try and introduce the other civs to FoL. Lanun were the first port of call. From there he caught a boat which drops him on the coast somewhere between the Sidar and Kuriotates but not too close to the barbarians.

It might not be necessary for the Mega Plot, if the Calabim and Kuriotates meet in the next 50 turns but let me know if Cernunnos would include this in the next God Turn if the two Civs have not met at that stage.

-----

I'd suggested that Esus would try to get other Gods to break the Compact. If that has happened already/is happening as part of the evil Gods' plan then Esus might need to put a bit of a twist on it. Getting the evil Gods to break an agreement does not sound like enough of a challenge for Esus. Getting Junil to break the compact, after he has been so careful to keep Sabathiel out of creation sounds more like something that would interest Esus. If the God of Oaths breaks an Oath, would that be enough to make him fall?
On the Vault side of things, Esus could meet Junil to drop hints that the Compact was already broken and therefore no longer binding on anyone - could start with the draft meeting I did earlier and then develop a few more.

Odds are Junil is not going to fall for it (unless Bad_Player decides to take things in a completely novel direction).
The second part of the plan would be for Esus to work on some of the Bannor people - to them he'd also be pointing out the breaches of the Compact that have already been performed, how the evil Gods are going to bring hell to Erebus unless Junil actively intervenes but how his hands are tied by his oath. These Bannor cultists would be told they have the power to free Junil from his oath. If they can get their hands on the ritual for summoning a God into creation from the Aifon Isle, then they can summon Junil into creation. Junil would be brought unwillingly into Erebus and as he did not choose to enter, he would not be breaking his oath. Junil would then be able to lead the cultists and the rest of the Bannor in cleansing Erebus of the taint of evil.
This would set up the Bannor as the people who are going to try to actively break the compact by summoning a God. The first conflict from this would probably be with the Elohim, who are determined not to let the Gods War start again, once they work it out.
I think the Aifon Isle is the water mana source to the west of the Malakim. If it comes within anyone's territory during the game as currently positioned, it will probably be the Elohim. If this plot is a runner, it might be worth repositioning the Aifon Isle. Ideally I'd like the Aifon Isle to come within the borders of an evil civ, maybe the Balseraphs. Then the cultists within the Bannor would push for open borders with the Balseraphs so that their sages can get to the Aifon Isle to do their research.
In game effects:
  • Move Aifon Isle and label it
  • Open Borders between Bannor and Balseraphs
  • Create a held Bannor Great Sage on the Aifon Isle and leave him there until the Kuriotates have had a chance to see him
  • Create a bit of diplo malus between the Elohim and the Bannor
  • War between Elohim and Bannor?
Possible tie ins for Verdian:
  • A former cultist flees into Kuriotates lands as he fears for his life. He gives the quest to go to the Aifon Isle and kill the evil men trying to research how to summon a God back into Erebus.
    When Verdian realises that its the Bannor he could go ahead and attack, starting a war or resort to diplomatic means. Sabathiel would probably crush the cult if Dallarin brought it to his attention giving a massive boost to Bannor/Kuriotates relations.
  • Elohim see the Dragon worshippers as the lesser of two evils and ask for Verdian's assistance in locating part of the Godslayer to stop Junil if he comes into creation (quest).
  • If a war starts, there's always choosing what side, if any, you're going to be on.
Any thoughts, especially from Bad_Player?
Not many thoughts, but if you want to try and tempt me in the game thread, it might be interesting.
 

Bad Player

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I am swearing right now.

The one time I don't copy all of the message before trying to post. Stupid thing. I hate the internet in Australia I really do.

Anyway I'm glad to see lots of agreement on using the Silent gods. As to the Ice vs Nature thing. Yes there is a picture somewhere showing the spheres of magic in a layout with their opposites. Water opposes fire. But Ice opposes Nature. Most likely due to the statis and unchanging nature of ice versus the constant gradual change of nature. It's why Sucellus the first god of nature was chosen to go into Erebus during the age of Ice to battle Mulcarn.

Plus while Mulcarn is dead some of his aspects survive. His Archangel is still trapped on a Isle somewhere, his breath of winter survives in Barnaxus the Golum hero of the Dwarves and the Precept of Ice has imbued a human with its power in Auric. Not to mention the slumbering Ice Dragon Drifta. So story potential is still there.

But in other news;

JUNIL


I have no idea who Cernunnos is meant to be talking to in this scene. Is it the God of Law himself Junil? Or his Angel Sabethial who leads the Bannor from a vault beneath the capital?

I quite like the idea of Cernunnos giving aid to Junil. Cernunnos is currently annoyed at those gods that are bending the compact. It's natural then that he would be on good terms with the one god whom has never even attempted to bend it. Junil only interacts with Erebus via his Archangel whom leads the Bannor and through mortal means.

But I'm not sure what aid he is asking for. Cernunnos has no nation he patrons himself. His religion worships nature itself not him specifically and can have a pantheon of deities. He is a god to everyone and no-one. While he is against forced forest fires, those caused by intervention, nature LIKES natural fires. Some trees can only breed and grow in the aftermath of fires after all and Cernunnos is a god of balanced nature not the nature of growth that his lord was.

So yes, I'm happy to help, but some clarification before I whip together a response would be nice. :)

I'm not sure about the finer details of FFH lore - should it be Junil or Sabathiel who talks to Cernunnos?


Aid could be in the form of FoL nations allying with the Bannor, you might place strong barbarian animals at weak spots of enemies (or provide them as units to the Bannor), convert/place ancient forests in useful spots, other terrain upgrades (jungle -> forest), we could think of others...
 

Lplate

Esus (Allegedly)
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Few more thoughts

@Abenpaap, Once significant numbers of people think that Erebus is Shadowfel, there's no way for someone to prove it one way or the other with information from within Erebus. The only way for a definitive answer is to look at the position of the world the characters are in relative to other worlds. I.e. Only those who've mastered Dimensional magic can give a certain answer, all other answers are based on faith.
This provides a reason for Weyoun to push for research into necromancy. Once the research is complete, Weyoun and his associates can claim their monopoly on the truth and announce authoritatively whether they're in Erebus or hell. If he says it's hell, no one else is really in a position to challenge it (except with, "We'll never believe you, no matter what evidence you say you have."). If he does this, the stage should be well set for the Pact of Ragnarok, or Ashen Veil.

---
There was a Criminal Minds episode where a con artist with multiple personas has a total breakdown. If the game gets to the Armageddon stage, then Esus going insane and no longer able to actually perceive what's real might make a nice closing chapter for him.

---
@Bad_Player, Further option for Lady Darthia. She's a Bannor spy but doesn't work for Sabathiel - she's part of that cult that would eventually think they need to summon Junil to Erebus. She's one of a number who travelled to other nations to see how they were complying with Junil's instructions to prepare for the holy war against Evil. Her report would indicate that the Kuriotates preparations are inadequate.
To encourage the Kuriotates to develop militarily, her organisation releases orcs that they've previously captured and been torturing at the Kuriotates border. These units would be Weak and Crazed from their confinement and torture, making them easily defeatable but they should encourage Dallarin to develop militarily to deal with the apparent orc menace.

In the story thread, you describe the archangel as meeting Cernunnos but Cernunnos addresses himself to Junil (the God). I'd suggest editing the story so it' either consistently the archangel (Sabathiel) or consistently the God (Junil). Given the Cernunnos story so far, I think a God coming to him as an equal would be more likely to sway him than an archangel.
 

Lplate

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Not many thoughts, but if you want to try and tempt me in the game thread, it might be interesting.

That implies that you're okay with me going ahead with all of the storylines featuring the Bannor cult, as that is supposed to be happening below Junil and Sabathiel's radar.

I'll do a rework of the draft Junil/Esus meeting, referencing some of the specific Compact breaches that have already occurred. I think that Junil dismissing Esus works fine for a first meeting as Esus would have to work on Junil for a while to have any chance of persuading him.
 
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