Hermetic Lore for FFH DI5

It's still too early too jump ship but go ahead and get the next DI lined up. I'll probably go for one of the Good or Neutral Gods. I'll either use my Esus ideas in this story or just leave drafts on this thread.
Lplate has come up with some great ideas and it would be a shame to not use them! But if we start a new game then we all know those ideas and it's not a surprise for the player.

Thanks.
Not for Ravus Sol
Spoiler :
One of the things with Esus is that he likes to play with what people think they know so an Esus player could use some of my ideas as starting points to trick the player into making false assumptions about his intentions.


I've no problem with bringing in Taranis (and Auric or Barnaxus) into the story. You could always go with rival civs pushing different contenders for God of Winter.

As well as the arms race;
  • Angels and minor demons in Erebus
  • Archangels getting involved on Erebus (pseudo-Iaegus, Taranis & Brigit)
  • Someone building the Mercurian Gate to bring Basium and Co to town
  • Infernal Pacts
  • Dragon Cult trying to raise Dragons
  • Attempts to research how to summon another God into creation
  • Attempts to elevate someone into the position of God of Ice
  • Searching for the Godslayer
There should be attempts to stop this escalation back into a full scale Godswar. The Elohim are the obvious ones to object to the arms race. The Grigori, led by Cassiel could also object. Any of the FoL civs, influenced by Cernunnos, could also try to stop/discourage the arms race.
This could lead to demands to purge the Dragon Cult from the Kuriotates land by other civilisations that become aware of it. It can't be eliminated in Aerie but the Kuriotates could be coerced into adopting another state religion and then friendly inquisitors could stamp out the Dragon Cult if it tries to spread in other Kuriotates cities. This would pose a dilemma for Verdian as the Dragon Cult is supposed to be the binding force for his new nation. He either ignores the demands and continues to encourage the Dragon Cult or he sets himself up for a lot of civil disturbance in his cities.
Some nations could actively try to dismantle Dragon bones to prevent Dragon cultists from successfully raising them in the future. Essentially, we give Verdian a warning on one God turn. On the following one, a Dragon Bones is removed and the civ who's territory it was in gets a massive cash influx (from sale of some of the bones). We follow this up with a second civ (or the same one) planning to dismantle another set of bones. Can Verdian ignore this or does he take action to protect the bones?
 
@Bad Player:
Ah, but he won't know *when* we'll be using them - plus the in-game character leading the mortal empire has no idea of them, and thus has to act completely oblivious of what the actual player knows.
Also, we can all come up with different ways to do the same things we have here. Creativity doesn't seem to be in short supply here, and if we're not averse to giving each other ideas more suited to another's god, archangel or precept, I don't think we'll have much trouble.

@LPlate: Agreed, at the very least I think we should give it time and see if we can hear from Verdian - it may just be that the demon of Real Life has reared its head.
As for the ideas outlined, the 'issue' with the Dragon Cult you present is in some form already present in some of my ideas. Starting with the creation of the settlement Lothbrok may or may not be joining, there'll be a fanatical sect of the cult that will be constantly pushing at him to go to war, to force all people to the worship of dragons, etc.
Since they'll also be working under the banner of the Dragon Cult, even if the main cult doesn't recognise or even know about them, other nations will react to various actions the sect takes - and knowing that the Kuriotates revere the Dragon Cult, it'll cause diplomatic tensions.

Pretty much, exactly what you're looking for. It would cause them to demand he convert from his heathen ways or turn on him.
 
LPlate I think you are a natural for Esus (I mean that as a compliment) - I feel like you've been type-cast now! ;). Esus has the ability to make lots of plot twists that doesn't make sense for other gods.


I wonder if this game would make a good basis for a scenario:
- interesting plot twists
- clan of embers on the other side of a mountain range to Bannor
- other features?


Might be worth thinking about after this game... And with a scenario, python coding could allow certain things to be done (if required).
 
Ravus - I call dibs on Camulos again if we do. I'm having fun here.

On Taranis though, I believe both the modmods I've seen him in he discovers that Mulcarn is no more he finds the brief flicker of Mulcarn that is in Auric. For a time he accepts Auric in lieu of Mulcarn, but then decides he wants the position of God of Winter for himself so he can re-winter the world. His goal, as I understand it, is to reclaim the throne and the divine precept so he can carry on where Mulcarn left off - though probably without much care for the Illians.

Looks like Verdian still hasn't logged on since the day after he posted the last update. But I do think we should give it at least one more week. For all we know he might grab it this weekend. Like is mention, RL might have thrown a curve ball. It happens sometimes. I'd be perfectly willing to come back to this one in a month or so.

I quoted Derf because his is the interpretation that I assumed was correct. That Taranis is a man turned into a machine. Just because he has that single mindedness doesn't mean he can't come to some cold inhuman reason to try to take the mantle of the Ice God. The main thing would be getting agreement on who he would support, or would seek out his support. We have no Illians or Frozen nations. Auric I can quite see seeking out the Amurites, especially if we go with the lore backstory that Auric is a son of Kylorin the Immortal Archmage. If both sides knew this to begin with they could develop quite a rapport. Taranis on the other hand... Is a lot more difficult. Who would want to have a unstoppable killing machine that wants to blanket the world in snow on their side? Unless we can make a decision on that it could be best to leave him out or used only later?

I actually would really enjoy the play off between Taranis the man-machine and Barnaxus the machine-man. Both approach the same point from different directions. And as Lplate says the Scions of Ice plotline could be slotted quite easily into the Arms race stuff that will come up in different fashions.
 
LPlate I think you are a natural for Esus (I mean that as a compliment) - I feel like you've been type-cast now! ;). Esus has the ability to make lots of plot twists that doesn't make sense for other gods.


I wonder if this game would make a good basis for a scenario:
- interesting plot twists
- clan of embers on the other side of a mountain range to Bannor
- other features?


Might be worth thinking about after this game... And with a scenario, python coding could allow certain things to be done (if required).

It might be, but unfortunately my knowledge of python is sub-par. Plus i'd prefer to try and get a different game up and running then create a scenario :p

But Bad Player is right. Lplate does make a good Esus.
 
Speaking of Barnaxus - who's to say he won't have some allegiance for Taranis? I can't find any lore-references to support this, but from what I gather Barnaxus has the symbol of the White Hand on him. The symbol of Mulcarn's priesthood, if I recall correctly. Doesn't that at least suggest a few ties?

That in itself gives an idea, assuming no one claims Mulcarn. As Ravus mentioned, we don't have Illian or Frozen nations, but who says they have to be present? We have the White Hand present in this modmod. Here's my rather rambling and wandering idea, as I'm thinking it up as I go along.
Spoiler :
Auric may or may not be around, but the remnants of the former Illians are - mostly concentrated around Letum Frigus, but this provides a place for the nations of Erebus to go to guarantee some form of revenge on them for how the Illians treated them in the Age of Ice.
So if the Illians want to survive, they have to hide and what better place than right under the noses of those who would kill them? Living as a possibily upstanding Kuriotate or Amurite, the Mulyalfar elves hidden among the Winter Court, maybe even a few dwarves that might have sided with them.
And with that, groups of them might try to keep the old ways alive (old ways = Illian rituals) along with the knowledge. The Illians aren't around - but their cult might experience a resurgance. Nations that choose not to suppress it might find they gain a Priest of Winter, or another winter-related unit. Nations that directly oppose it might find themselves on the receiving end of a priest's summoned blizzard.
Following this, we already have several theories that the lost knowledge to bring a God into creation is still in Erebus somewhere - lore wise, at Aifon Isle. Who says it has to be Auric who ascends? I'll grant, he was able to because of some shard of Mulcarn within him, and Taranis is his Archangel and therefore no less qualified. But without Auric around, who knows what would happen if another leader went to the caves beneath Letum Frigus?


Yeah, that probably doesn't make too much sense and it wanders all over the place. I figure it should be understandable enough, given that it was made up as I went along and with a deficiency of tea.
I think I'm going to remedy the latter now.
 
We have the White Hand present in this modmod. Here's my rather rambling and wandering idea, as I'm thinking it up as I go along.

I think there's a load of potential in those ideas. There seems to be lots that can be done with the precept of a dead God.
 
Speaking of Barnaxus - who's to say he won't have some allegiance for Taranis? I can't find any lore-references to support this, but from what I gather Barnaxus has the symbol of the White Hand on him. The symbol of Mulcarn's priesthood, if I recall correctly. Doesn't that at least suggest a few ties?

That in itself gives an idea, assuming no one claims Mulcarn. As Ravus mentioned, we don't have Illian or Frozen nations, but who says they have to be present? We have the White Hand present in this modmod. Here's my rather rambling and wandering idea, as I'm thinking it up as I go along.
Spoiler :
Auric may or may not be around, but the remnants of the former Illians are - mostly concentrated around Letum Frigus, but this provides a place for the nations of Erebus to go to guarantee some form of revenge on them for how the Illians treated them in the Age of Ice.
So if the Illians want to survive, they have to hide and what better place than right under the noses of those who would kill them? Living as a possibily upstanding Kuriotate or Amurite, the Mulyalfar elves hidden among the Winter Court, maybe even a few dwarves that might have sided with them.
And with that, groups of them might try to keep the old ways alive (old ways = Illian rituals) along with the knowledge. The Illians aren't around - but their cult might experience a resurgance. Nations that choose not to suppress it might find they gain a Priest of Winter, or another winter-related unit. Nations that directly oppose it might find themselves on the receiving end of a priest's summoned blizzard.
Following this, we already have several theories that the lost knowledge to bring a God into creation is still in Erebus somewhere - lore wise, at Aifon Isle. Who says it has to be Auric who ascends? I'll grant, he was able to because of some shard of Mulcarn within him, and Taranis is his Archangel and therefore no less qualified. But without Auric around, who knows what would happen if another leader went to the caves beneath Letum Frigus?


Yeah, that probably doesn't make too much sense and it wanders all over the place. I figure it should be understandable enough, given that it was made up as I went along and with a deficiency of tea.
I think I'm going to remedy the latter now.

Maybe that could be an event or event chain. Suppression of the white hand causes some positives and some negatives but allowing it alao causes some positives and some negatives (e.g. receiving a priest of winter).
 
I believe that was due to art limitations. The unit art used was also used for a Doviello unit I believe, and the leaderhead is from one of the Priests of Winter in the final FfH2 scenario where the three Priests you get from the White Hand ritual are actual Illian Leaders.
 
@Ravus Sol,
Did you have any idea what CIV you were thinking if using or what the back story would be for the next DI?
 
@Ravus Sol,
Did you have any idea what CIV you were thinking if using or what the back story would be for the next DI?

I wasn't planning to bring it up myself until after we had given it one more weekend, holding out hope even with only the sunday to go I guess...

But it would obviously depend on the mod used. I'd probably say stick to this version of Magisters Lore Mod, that way it would be easier to jump back in when Verdian reappears. (I've also tried all the others recently and I did not realise how vastly different some of them were. Master of Mana in particular would be far too fiddly to play a DI game with.)

If we stuck with this mod i'd Probably go for one of the following;

Illians led by Ciarán
(Ciarán = Auric Ulvin leader renamed)
Spoiler :
In the final battle the remains of the Dovellio clan attempts to come to the aid of the Illians. Ciarán is a great warrior but is struck down by the magic wielding Amurites. He stays conscious just long enough to see a God die... then comes to in the arms of Wilboman the last surviving Frost Giant who has fled the battle carrying him. They manage to make it back to a Illian encampment only for news of Mulcarns defeat to reach the tribe. When a weak Illian leader talks about commanding protection from the surviving Dovellio and waiting for a new leader Ciarán is enraged. He had followed the Illians because they were strong. If they were no longer so, then they did not deserve to lead themselves. Ciarán usurps control and history is changed.

This CIV would be more agressive and mercenary like then the original Illians, and the new leadership could derail Auric existing at all. Considering the leader has seen a god die he would be less likely to worship and more likely to be bribed or bought.

Amurites led by Cassiel
Spoiler :
During the Age of Ice Cassiel wandered, still ageless. By a stroke of luck he happened upon Kylorin in the early stages of gathering the scattered tribes of man into a nation. Spurred by this achievement and having been shocked at the breaking of the spirit of the Compact by Mulcarn, Cassiel helps the burgoning nation rebuild. In doing so he also starts to spread his teachings.
When Kylorin rebuilds the Godslayer and faces Mulcarn in combat Cassiel is there. The Fallen Archangel watches as a man slays a God. While the Immortal Archmage chooses to disappear into the Ice with the ultimate weapon, Cassiel instead returns to the Amurites with the tale of their leader ending the Age of Ice.
The Amurite nation prospers into the new Age with the magic teachings of Kylorin passed down by word of mouth and Cassiels teachings of philosophy continued to this day.

This CIV would basically be an amalgamation of the magic loving Amurites and the philosphical Grigori. With a slightly more pro-active Cassiel leading them in spirit they would allow sects of worship in their nation, but no state religion. They would also have a society that would view the so called "gods" as only higher beings. Some might even say equal beings seeing as their forefather slew one of them.

Cassiel and the Amurites magic council would rule the city and be cordial with any Divine beings and as long as Cassiel was a revered leader there would be no outright worship in the land. This CIV would be more likely tricked or argued into action.

Calabim led by Decius
EDIT: Just remembered that the current Vampire Promotion doesn't work correctly. The idea was to have a pure hearted Decius flee with a band of settlers and slaves and set up a new colony that would have internal strife.

I was trying to make a show of a Evil, Neutral and Good CIV choice to see what people think. But with the Calabim off the table none of the good ones appeal to me much (apart from the kuriotates but I don't want to use them for obvious reasons.) Elohim could be very fun because of their tolerant mechanic, where they conquer a city and passive the current population while keeping its culture. It would make fun story telling but I can't think of a way to make any of the leaders *fun*.

Elohim led by Gariel the Strong
EDIT 2: Apparantly "Gariel the Strong was the King of the Elohim nation" during the begining of the age of Rebirth before he succumbed to illness... I could have him live instead and be a merciful defender of the peoples who is a bit more pro-war and less spiritual then his daughter Ethne the White.

But as you can tell this idea is in its infancy compared to the others.
 
I rather like the Cassiel/Amurite partnership myself. It doesn't go to the extremes the Grigori do, casting aside the gods almost entirely, and by your own (possibly inadvertent) admission, they're perfect for Esus.
Plus I had a little idea form while I was reading it :p
 
Speaking of Barnaxus - who's to say he won't have some allegiance for Taranis? I can't find any lore-references to support this, but from what I gather Barnaxus has the symbol of the White Hand on him. The symbol of Mulcarn's priesthood, if I recall correctly. Doesn't that at least suggest a few ties?

That in itself gives an idea, assuming no one claims Mulcarn. As Ravus mentioned, we don't have Illian or Frozen nations, but who says they have to be present? We have the White Hand present in this modmod. Here's my rather rambling and wandering idea, as I'm thinking it up as I go along.

I believe Barnaxus was under the command of Mulcarn during the age of Ice and it was him that was creating all the Ice Golums for the Illians. Ice and Statis is the precept of reminiscence so while Taranis tries to return the world to Ice like his God wished, Barnaxus tries to return Golum crafting to the sky-dwarves.

IF, of course, the dwarves also started to have sects of the White hand infest their nation then perhaps both could work together.

All of your ideas are good and I hope we get to use them in this game :) I'd forgotten about the Mulyalfar elves myself.

Maybe that could be an event or event chain. Suppression of the white hand causes some positives and some negatives but allowing it alao causes some positives and some negatives (e.g. receiving a priest of winter).

An obvious idea is that if someone allows a temple of the hand to be installed they get ice and tundra surrounding them! In this mod the area of affect is 1 tile per ice mana, so as none of the nations would have any we would just be able to edit the terrain manually.
 
I rather like the Cassiel/Amurite partnership myself. It doesn't go to the extremes the Grigori do, casting aside the gods almost entirely, and by your own (possibly inadvertent) admission, they're perfect for Esus.
Plus I had a little idea form while I was reading it :p

I'd vote for Cassiel and the Amurites also. I think the Elohim idea would be my second choice.
Cassiel/Amurites aren't just perfect for Esus. Oghma is the main God for Amurites and Dagda was Cassiel's boss. Mammon is the usual manipulator. Sucellus could be an interesting God, seeing as He's allowed within Creation - reemphasising that the Gods are just higher/equal beings.

As we're dealing with an archangel mortal player, the Gods may have to plan to act on the people to force Cassiel in certain directions (or force him to acknowledge the inevitability of certain choices).

Would the Grigori be specifically excluded from the civs in the game set-up?
Is Cassiel bound to Erebus or can he visit the Vaults of various Gods?
As we'd have an immortal leader, would a game turn represent longer than a month?
Did you have any special rules (anything like Verdian's settlers) in mind?
 
I'd vote for Cassiel and the Amurites also. I think the Elohim idea would be my second choice.
Cassiel/Amurites aren't just perfect for Esus. Oghma is the main God for Amurites and Dagda was Cassiel's boss. Mammon is the usual manipulator. Sucellus could be an interesting God, seeing as He's allowed within Creation - reemphasising that the Gods are just higher/equal beings.

As we're dealing with an archangel mortal player, the Gods may have to plan to act on the people to force Cassiel in certain directions (or force him to acknowledge the inevitability of certain choices).

Indeed Amurites have a host of Gods linked to their history, adding Cassiel to the mix just adds more, and thats before assuming that they study the Gods that are linked to each sphere of magic. I suppose they do lend themselves to Esus in terms of the fact they would be ruled by a council and not a king but hey I'm being realistic! :lol:

If I did Amurites I had planned to make a more ensemble cast quite quickly, with Cassiel around he is able to provide the Amurites with a better history of the world and for better or worse has helped shape them into a Nation run by a Magic council similar to the Patrian nation. Each sphere of magic has a seat in the council and the most sage person for that chair holds it. Cassiel holds the seat of Balance and Force and while he does not have more power then any of the others he is the speaker for the council and helps bring order to the meetings.

Thus there would be a lot of ways the gods could try to exert influence beyond Cassiel. Especially once the Amurites rediscover the magic of their father Kylorin.

Would the Grigori be specifically excluded from the civs in the game set-up?
Is Cassiel bound to Erebus or can he visit the Vaults of various Gods?
As we'd have an immortal leader, would a game turn represent longer than a month?
Did you have any special rules (anything like Verdian's settlers) in mind?

I think I would exclude the Grigori as without Cassiel they wouldn't exist.
I'd say Cassiel is bound to Erebus and refuses to use any powers he might have.
I don't want the ensemble cast of mortals to change over too often if we made the turns longer then a month... Don't want people to have to relearn names too often. Even if we just changed it to have a turn equal three months, Then 4 turns is a year and 40 is a decade and 400 is a century.
2 months would mean 6 turns is a year, 60 is a decade and 600 is a centure... which sounds more do-able in a normal speed game, if everyone would prefer a longer time frame like that.
As for special rules, no founding/researching a religion due to Cassiel's influence. But I can't think of any special ones that fit the theme to be honest. If anyone has any ideas i'd love to hear them.

I was also thinking that when booting up the game i'd manually add in every single nation to a large size map, save on turn 0, then let the gods run around choosing which nations they would like to delete. That way if someone decides later they would like a nation to be in play it would be in the save file and no one would have to fiddle with the save file manually.
 
If I did Amurites I had planned to make a more ensemble cast quite quickly, with Cassiel around he is able to provide the Amurites with a better history of the world and for better or worse has helped shape them into a Nation run by a Magic council similar to the Patrian nation. Each sphere of magic has a seat in the council and the most sage person for that chair holds it. Cassiel holds the seat of Balance and Force and while he does not have more power then any of the others he is the speaker for the council and helps bring order to the meetings.
I like the council. Every God player (except Dagda) would have a character on it. The agendas of the council members and their sphere's associated Gods wouldn't necessarily align.
We'd have to do a bit of pre-work on the Hermetic thread (why is it called that?) to work out council factions and which council members typically back each other. Again, those alliances might not reflect the alliances of the Gods. Council debates might take a fair bit of discussion to choreograph.

I'd suggest that at the start of the game the Amurites would have Mysticism and an Elder Council building in the capital to reflect the ruling council. The God players can work out an appropriate tech/building freebie for the other civs to start with.

Including all the civs at the start and then letting us delete them is a good idea. God players might want to think about if they have a preferred leader of some civs to suit the story (We can always say it's X, but it's neater if the pictures and the traits the AI is playing with match the God player's plans). I assume you weren't going to add in every leader also.
 
Sorry for being AWOL for so long. You see, I've been indulging in a lot of RPs in two other sites, and lost track of time.
 
Sorry for being AWOL for so long. You see, I've been indulging in a lot of RPs in two other sites, and lost track of time.

No worries, but havn't missed much, Verdian seems to have suffered a RL upset and we were discussing whether to start a new DI.

I like the council. Every God player (except Dagda) would have a character on it. The agendas of the council members and their sphere's associated Gods wouldn't necessarily align.
We'd have to do a bit of pre-work on the Hermetic thread (why is it called that?) to work out council factions and which council members typically back each other. Again, those alliances might not reflect the alliances of the Gods. Council debates might take a fair bit of discussion to choreograph.

I'd suggest that at the start of the game the Amurites would have Mysticism and an Elder Council building in the capital to reflect the ruling council. The God players can work out an appropriate tech/building freebie for the other civs to start with.

Including all the civs at the start and then letting us delete them is a good idea. God players might want to think about if they have a preferred leader of some civs to suit the story (We can always say it's X, but it's neater if the pictures and the traits the AI is playing with match the God player's plans). I assume you weren't going to add in every leader also.

Yes most of the Council wouldn't have to follow the mentality of the god their magic is linked too. To emphasise, in Patria it was Perpenchant the Mind Mage that went the most crazy. While the Spirit Mage plots to overthrow the underworld and the Water Mage was the one who found the ritual to summon a GOD into the world.

I'm sure you could ignore most of the council until you wish to name them. As long as its consistent.

I'll wait until the weekend is over to continue my "just in case policy" then I'll start a new thread and see if people would be up for trying again. I'll also try and ask for a back-up human player, no matter how unlikely it would be to get one. There would be enough Characters i think for another person to write from a mortal perspective without clashing with me. I'd just like to have one of these things finish for once :lol:

No I wasn't going to include multiple nations under different leaders unless someone requested it. I figured I'd just use the most well known. Unless anyone wants to make a request before tomorrow?

Also no one seems to like the Illian idea so I assume the Amurite one would be best :king:
 
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