[NFP] Hero Observations

[cain3456]

One thing I just encountered: An archaeologist found the Torch of Maui, a heroic symbolic object. I didn't have any slots in a monument for it, so it went into an archaeological museum. It doesn't have an era, so I guess that musem can't be themed. I also can't swap it into another archaeological museum.

Someone else probably had Maui, then

On another note, I was running a hotseat match, & when Beowulf uses his challenge on a vampire, that vampire is permanently dead. Not sure if this is a bug or working as intended.

 

[iammaxhailme]

Someone else probably had Maui, then

On another note, I was running a hotseat match, & when Beowulf uses his challenge on a vampire, that vampire is permanently dead. Not sure if this is a bug or working as intended.

Yeah, I'm not surprised at finding someone else's heroic object. I'm more surprised it went into an archaeological museum. Then again, I don't know where else it'd go... if you steal a great work while having no slots for one, it just vanishes off the earth, so maybe I could feasibly expect that?

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Yeah, I'm not surprised at finding someone else's heroic object. I'm more surprised it went into an archaeological museum. Then again, I don't know where else it'd go... if you steal a great work while having no slots for one, it just vanishes off the earth, so maybe I could feasibly expect that?

It's an artifact from another Civilization from another time, so of course, it could be considered an archaeological discovery.

 

[iammaxhailme]

It's an artifact from another Civilization from another time, so of course, it could be considered an archaeological discovery.

True, but I also got another one from a different other civ's hero and they went in a monument, becuase I had room. (I'm pretty sure, anyway)

I presumably could have gotten one from my own hero with no monument space and I guess it'd go into an archaeological museum.

 

[AntSou]

I'm increasingly of the opinion that there should be a limit of one Hero per Civ and that the initial cost should be higher.

 

[Ansive]

Can you even get more than 1 hero when playing with 12 civs?

 

[Equilin]

Can you even get more than 1 hero when playing with 12 civs?

From my games, AI aren't prioritizing them that much, so it's possible to consistently have 2-4 heroes yourself.

 

[UWHabs]

I'm increasingly of the opinion that there should be a limit of one Hero per Civ and that the initial cost should be higher.

Yeah, kind of feels they should be more like a religion. The cost of the first hero is way too small, but the 2nd one seemed about right.

Or maybe you should be limited to recruiting one hero per era or something. So you can get your first one early, and maybe a 2nd one in the classical era, but the 3rd one couldn't come until the medieval, which means you'd almost certainly never get that far.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Yeah, kind of feels they should be more like a religion. The cost of the first hero is way too small, but the 2nd one seemed about right.

Or maybe you should be limited to recruiting one hero per era or something. So you can get your first one early, and maybe a 2nd one in the classical era, but the 3rd one couldn't come until the medieval, which means you'd almost certainly never get that far.

The first one's definitely too easy, but other Heroes depend on your Religion output, so if you are not prioritizing Religion, you are going to have trouble bagging a 2nd or 3rd Hero. On the other hand, multiple Heroes wold be almost a by-product of playing with, say, a tundra-based Peter or a Basil, both of which should be swimming in Religion anyway.

I think my next game will be a Religion-based one, and see just how many Heroes one can snag with a little effort . . .

 

[bengalryan9]

The first one's definitely too easy, but other Heroes depend on your Religion output, so if you are not prioritizing Religion, you are going to have trouble bagging a 2nd or 3rd Hero. On the other hand, multiple Heroes wold be almost a by-product of playing with, say, a tundra-based Peter or a Basil, both of which should be swimming in Religion anyway.

I think my next game will be a Religion-based one, and see just how many Heroes one can snag with a little effort . . .

It would be nice if not everything wasn't so dependent on faith. You'd think heroes would be willing to work for big piles of gold too.

As it nowadays if you don't invest in faith when playing you're basically just shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[UWHabs]

It would be nice if not everything wasn't so dependent on faith. You'd think heroes would be willing to work for big piles of gold too.

As it nowadays if you don't invest in faith when playing you're basically just shooting yourself in the foot.

Faith is definitely a very valuable commodity, almost essential for any cultural game already, and given that faith buying units starting in the mid-game becomes a decent option, and now the heroes, it certainly becomes more valuable. Definitely not something to neglect

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

It would be nice if not everything wasn't so dependent on faith. You'd think heroes would be willing to work for big piles of gold too.

As it nowadays if you don't invest in faith when playing you're basically just shooting yourself in the foot.

This is not necessarily a bad thing, since historically, religion was a hugely important part of people's lives and their kingdoms' legitimacy until fairly recently. It actually makes sense for it to be important and worthy of emphasis in the first half/two-thirds of the game.
On the other hand, it is less legitimate that everything from founding and nuturing a 'national religion' to obtaining both Great People and Heroes should be dependent on the same game mechanic. This is particularly peculiar when you consider that only some of the Heroes presented so far are especially religious in nature and some (Beowulf, Mulan, Sindbad) have no discernable religious connection at all.

In the future they might want to split up the Heroes into those dependent on Religion, those dependent on Culture, and those dependent on Gold . . .

 

[8housesofelixir]

On the other hand, it is less legitimate that everything from founding and nuturing a 'national religion' to obtaining both Great People and Heroes should be dependent on the same game mechanic. This is particularly peculiar when you consider that only some of the Heroes presented so far are especially religious in nature and some (Beowulf, Mulan, Sindbad) have no discernable religious connection at all.

I assume the Heroes share the same logic with Rock Bands, i.e. "spiritual power".

And I agree, it's not like one cannot fund a rock band using Gold, but the game mechanism is already settled.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I assume the Heroes share the same logic with Rock Bands, i.e. "spiritual power".

And I agree, it's not like one cannot fund a rock band using Gold, but the game mechanism is already settled.

The real purpose of the Rock Bands = Religion conflation was, I thought, to keep Religion important in the late game. It has the effect, though, of making religion important to Culture and Tourism in the late game, which is not as easy an argument to make.
In fact, I think (for Civ VII, at this point) it would be a good idea to take a hard look at what religion really means in the game and for the game mechanics. Is it strictly Religion or is it a major Cultural component as well? If that, how does the effect of Religion = Culture vary throughout the game - like, into the Modern/Atomic Eras when Religion has tended to become a Reaction to other Cultural trends, not a leader of them (the reactionary Fundamentalist movement in both Christianity and Islam being my prime example)

 

[Victoria]

The real purpose of the Rock Bands

I believe it was the replacements for great musician concerts from civV. Everyone was asking for them to come back and they were introduced as such IIRC. Certainly they were an improvement in my view but the use of faith was intriguing to me.

it would be a good idea to take a hard look at what religion really means

You mean what faith really means?
Religion is fairly much set in our heads and I think Firaxis has underestimated how much religion is still out there. Just in the western world, which I though was quite irreligious having come from New Zealand, I discovered that America is still heavily religious to the point it has a deep impact in politics. Take Japan, religion there is quite different and so embedded in culture they are hard to split. Other countries still can have a huge religious presence as we know. I think maybe they intentionally have toned it down in later eras purely not to be contentious?
Belief is another thing altogether as rock bands showed. Gold is gild, tech is tech. Culture is about identity, practices and social rules founded in philosophy but also is about cultural practices and rock bands can also fit in here so there is a blurring with faith. So what Firaxis has implied to me is faith is the spiritual self of your people, the will of the people. The temples may correctly generate it early on amd to this day still do but Firaxis has implemented something a little deeper and blurred with culture. I am not sure the two can be dis associated so easily but there you go. Mechanic in and settled, unlikely to be changed.

 

[UWHabs]

I believe it was the replacements for great musician concerts from civV. Everyone was asking for them to come back and they were introduced as such IIRC. Certainly they were an improvement in my view but the use of faith was intriguing to me.
You mean what faith really means?
Religion is fairly much set in our heads and I think Firaxis has underestimated how much religion is still out there. Just in the western world, which I though was quite irreligious having come from New Zealand, I discovered that America is still heavily religious to the point it has a deep impact in politics. Take Japan, religion there is quite different and so embedded in culture they are hard to split. Other countries still can have a huge religious presence as we know. I think maybe they intentionally have toned it down in later eras purely not to be contentious?
Belief is another thing altogether as rock bands showed. Gold is gild, tech is tech. Culture is about identity, practices and social rules founded in philosophy but also is about cultural practices and rock bands can also fit in here so there is a blurring with faith. So what Firaxis has implied to me is faith is the spiritual self of your people, the will of the people. The temples may correctly generate it early on amd to this day still do but Firaxis has implemented something a little deeper and blurred with culture. I am not sure the two can be dis associated so easily but there you go. Mechanic in and settled, unlikely to be changed.

Yeah, they can't make a large change to it at this stage, but I think in civ 7, I would love it if there was a way to essentially "phase out" the religious aspect of the game at some point, but perhaps have a new currency come online later.

So, for example, maybe at a certain stage of the game, holy sites/shrines/temples cut down on their faith output, but transform to producing culture instead (as in the modern game, old temples are really more cultural locations rather than a centre of life like they would have been earlier). And then presumably you would want something else to act as a currency to be used for stuff like rock bands/naturalists/heroes/etc... Maybe they still use faith, but in the modern era perhaps that's generated more from some sort of "civic pride" so comes from neighbourhoods and shopping malls and T3 buildings or something.

 

[cain3456]

Yeah, they can't make a large change to it at this stage, but I think in civ 7, I would love it if there was a way to essentially "phase out" the religious aspect of the game at some point, but perhaps have a new currency come online later.

So, for example, maybe at a certain stage of the game, holy sites/shrines/temples cut down on their faith output, but transform to producing culture instead (as in the modern game, old temples are really more cultural locations rather than a centre of life like they would have been earlier). And then presumably you would want something else to act as a currency to be used for stuff like rock bands/naturalists/heroes/etc... Maybe they still use faith, but in the modern era perhaps that's generated more from some sort of "civic pride" so comes from neighbourhoods and shopping malls and T3 buildings or something.

Could be part of the new economic mode that's supposed to be in the January patch.

 

[walkerjks]

One thing I just encountered: An archaeologist found the Torch of Maui, a heroic symbolic object. I didn't have any slots in a monument for it, so it went into an archaeological museum. It doesn't have an era, so I guess that musem can't be themed. I also can't swap it into another archaeological museum.

But a lot of tourism in their own right, so losing theming isn't the end of the world. And you almost always end up with 1 or 2 full unthemed arch. museums, so the one with the heroic relic simply becomes one of the unthemed ones to stash a couple things you can't otherwise theme anyway.

 

[Victoria]

of "civic pride" so comes from neighbourhoods and shopping malls

Putting rock bands next to neighbourhoods and shopping malls..... hmmm

 

[greenOak]

Due to starting with a monument, Rome has great synergy with heroes. With luck (discovering Anansi first) I was able to get political philosophy on turn 18.