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Hidden Nationality Observations

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Tutorials, Reference, & Guides' started by Pounder, Aug 7, 2011.

  1. Pounder

    Pounder Phaethon was here

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    Observation #1)

    Army loaded with only Hidden Nationality Unit (s), they can attack without starting a war, but if you attack them it starts a war.

    The AI created an army and loaded a hidden nationality unit; hence, the white flag.
    Their nationality is given away by the a secondary civ colour that tells me it is the Sioux (cyan colour).

    I was thinking that maybe this colour should always be a neutral colour, black would probably work.




    They attacked Carthage without starting a war. Then they attacked me without declaring war and did not start a war.

    When I went to return fire on my turn, which I have been doing during the game already on hidden nationality units that are not loaded in an army, the window popped up saying I would being declaring war, would you like to continue.

    Adding a hidden nationality unit to an army adds a whole new dimension.






    You prompted me to set up a test.

    If you load a single hidden nationality unit into the army and attack, then they attack without starting a war. Add a second hidden nationality unit to the army and the same thing happens.

    If the second unit added to the army is a non-hidden nationality (nationality declared), then the army declared war at the start of the fight, not in the middle.

    So there is no starting a war in the middle of a fight.

    Edit: On further game play, I as a human player built an army with a single unit with hidden nationality and tried to attack an AI city , the game would not allow me to attack (the capture flag is set on the hidden nationality unit), it was like I was trying attack with a worker, except there wasn't even a message saying that this unit could not attack. The game just didn't acknowledge anything, it was like it was an impassible tile. The thing is that the game allows the AI to attack a city with the same army configuration. I also noticed that the army flag was my civ colour while the AI army flag colour would be white.

    This army has no problem attacking enemy units without starting a war, you just can't attack a city, but they AI is allowed to.

    Here is an example of an in game test I did as a human trying to attack a city with an Army loaded with Hidden Nationality Unit:
    1) I am not at war.
    2) I tried to atttack a city with the Army loaded with Hidden Nationality Unit and the game doesn't even give a message telling me that I would be declaring war, it just doesn't let me go to that tile/city.
    3) I go to the diplomacy windows and declared war on that civ, then the Army loaded with Hidden Nationality Unit has no problem attacking that city and has no problem occupying that city.

    The AI doesn't have that problem. The AI can attack a city with the Army loaded with Hidden Nationality Unit and not declare war.

    I haven't tried to attack a enemy unit in a barricade with the human player's Army loaded with Hidden Nationality Unit, I will update when I do.

    One more thing, the AI Hidden Nationality in an Army or Hidden Nationality no-Army can attack a human army without declaring war, but the Human can not do the same.


    Observation #2)

    I noticed, not with armies, but in a similar vein:

    If a unit with hidden nationality is in a barricade/fortress and in its territory and you attack, you will be declaring war.

    The barricade/fortress gives the unit it's nationality, just like the army does.

    Funny thing is that I can bomb or bombard that unit in the barricade/fortress without starting a war, but if I attack with a ground unit I will be declaring war.:crazyeye:


    Observation #3)

    I have confirmed for myself (others may have already done so):

    If a hidden nationality unit (not loaded into an army, just the unit) attacks a Civ's unique unit and the unique unit wins the battle, then the unique unit's Civ goes into a Golden age (if it hadn't already done so).

    Observation #4)

    Something else I noticed, my Privateer (naval unit with hidden nationality) with the bombard flag is not checked. There are bombard parameters but bombard is no selected.

    The AI uses these units and they are going around bombarding: they actually move in, bombard, then move away, one after the other.
    The human can not bombard.

    One more set of crossed wires with hidden nationality.

    Observation #5)

    Something else I noticed:

    There was a hidden nationality immobile artilly by itself on what is now my territory (city was razed and it was left behind). I wanted to build a road to that tile but when I told the worker to build a road to that tile it would not go. So I moved a unit to the tile so it was sitting on the tile with the artillary, then it allowed me to give a build road to that tile command.

    It was sort of like loading units on a boat, if you were not adjacent to the boat you could not load, but in this case, once you have a unit on the tile you can.

    BTW, Once an AI goes on this tile with an offensive unit, you can't use the goto command to get off the tile you must step off to an adjacent tile and then you can use the goto command from the adjacent tile.

    Eliminating the civ does not make the hidden nationality immobile units go away.

    You can found a city on top of one of these units. Once the city is built on this tile the hidden nationality immobile units disappear.

    Example:

    Here is a pick showing the units on a tile with the Sea Cannons (the Hidden Nationality Immobile Units), they belong to no one since the Civ has been destroyed. I then moved miltary unit (unit with attack) onto the tile with the Sea Cannon, then I moved my workers onto the tile to clean up the ruins and build irrigation and roads. The Persians then decided to move there military units onto the tile and now we all occupy the tile together.

    For a test, I then abandoned the near by city so I could build a city with the settler and the Sea Cannons went away and I assume that the Persian units went back to their capital. The new city happened to get the same name as the city I abadoned.

    What gets odd is I can't add any more offensive units to the tile after the AI has moved onto the tile, where the AI seems to have no problem adding more units, so you better get your settler on the tile with your offensive units before the AI does otherwise you will be blocked from building the city.





    Observation #6)

    One thing I have noticed with Armies that is notable.

    1) I loaded A Hidden Nationality King Unit into an army, the army remained hidden nationality. Can attack without starting a war.

    2) I loaded a second Hidden Nationality King Unit that was the same unit type as the first into the same army and the army remained hidden nationality. Can attck without starting a war.

    3) If I loaded two Hidden Nationality King Units that are different unit types into the army, the army is no longer hidden nationality and will start a war if it attacks a rivel unit.
     
  2. Blue Monkey

    Blue Monkey Archon Without Portfolio

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    Thanks for starting this, Pounder. Hopefully others will post their experiments & results.
     
  3. MadGAD

    MadGAD Warlord

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    Two observations: Enslaving. Hidden nationality and Barbarians.
    1) All you know that barbarians cannot capture workers, settlers and towns. But hidden-nationality-civ-unit sometimes can! Yes, if unit with h.n. flag by -=your=- civ attacks enemy city... nope, he cannot attack (before you start WAR from another normal unit or diplomacy screen), even if city haven't guard. If AI have a h.n. unit, it can capture non-guarded settlements, settlers and workers. WITHOUT DECLARING A WAR. Yes, you will see an enemy civ color on captured unit or city, but this will not cause war.
    2) Enslaving a h.n. unit or barbarian. If you have unit coded to enslave defeated enemy, may be it will be usefull for you. You find some unit that is hidden-nationality but you didnt really knew who it is. If unit is barbarian, then you enslaving a unit with barbarian prefix (Slave (Barbarian)), if you enslaving some other civs h.n. unit, you will enslave a unit with this civs prefix to units name. (Slave (civname)). It won't start war for you.

    Bonus exploit: if some your unit can enslave workers from enemies (maybe slave for ancient or fantasy scenario or prisoner\captives for modern), you could use some interesting thing. If you enslave sioux (for example) slave and move it to your city. Join to city and you will see a laborer coloured and named for it's previous unit owner (Happy laborer (Sioux)). Create a worker\settler\other citizen-consuming unit and you will see it's prefix on unit's name (Worker (Sioux)), all as usual... BUT!!!!!! IF YOU ENSLAVE A BARBARIAN UNIT AND JOIN IT TO YOUR CITY you could create a workers\settlers as usual, but they will not consume barbarian citizen! Fro example, i have a great campaign against barbarians on my scenario and has many captives from them. I join all of them (let it be 15) to my city (let it be 10 citizens). And after that I thought my Empire needs more workers so I start build them from it's city. So I build 10 workers. Then I look at city and found that there are only barbarian citizens remain in city. I build 10 more workers and.... My city didn't lose even one barbarian citizen! Somewhat game engine checks that there are free citizens and builds worker. But maybe then tries to find and disable any citizen from city for any civ EXCEPT barbarians. So there are exploit for you: unlimited workers and settlers from enslaved barbarians :)
     
  4. Pounder

    Pounder Phaethon was here

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  5. T-mun

    T-mun King Numa

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    I have to try that, it sounds incredible (even if I do believe you MadGad) and fun. Who said there wasn't any cheat in Civ3 ? :D
    Good work Pounder, this thread will be very useful in the future. Did you enter it in the modding wiki ?
     
  6. CommandoBob

    CommandoBob AbstractArt

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    I was browsing and found this nugget of knowledge in the thread Da Rules relating to Observation #1 in the OP:

     
  7. Pounder

    Pounder Phaethon was here

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    It is unfair to the human.

    Hidden nationality units with defensive bombard will also have offensive bombard even though it is not assigned, the human will not have offensive bombard if only defensive bombard is assigned.

    I gave privateers defensive bombard only to give them a better chance at first hit, now I see stacks of them coming by and bombarding land units and improvements on shore.


    Edited after _ghost_'s post (#8):
    My Privateer (naval unit with hidden nationality) with the bombard flag is not checked. There are bombard parameters but bombard is no selected.

    The AI uses these units and they are going around bombarding: they actually move in, bombard, then move away, one after the other.
    The human can not bombard.
     
  8. _ghost_

    _ghost_ Warlord

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    em pounder. did ur privateers had a 'range' of zero?
     
  9. Pounder

    Pounder Phaethon was here

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    I checked that and you are right, but the bombard flag is not checked and still the AI bombards and I can't.

    I will have to change one of my observations as the problem isn't stated accurately.

    Either way I am going to turn bombard on for the unit so the human can bombard as well.
     
  10. _ghost_

    _ghost_ Warlord

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    as far as i know uncheck bombard does not make it impossible at all. steph onc tried to use units that cant fortify. but it was still able due the posibility to fortify whole stacks.

    what i mean. if u set the"bombard range" of the unit to zero. then its impossible for every player ( AI / human) to bombard other tiles at all.
     
  11. Pounder

    Pounder Phaethon was here

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    Thanks, I understand that, I will try both: bombard with range and bombard with no range, but I'm leaning on giving them the offensive.
     
  12. _ghost_

    _ghost_ Warlord

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    take a look at the "archer" this unit hs defensive bombardement and cannot bombard other tiles.

    thats the way it will work with ur privateer too
     
  13. Pounder

    Pounder Phaethon was here

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    Something else I discovered today:

    There was a hidden nationality immobile artilly by itself on what is now my territory (city was razed and it was left behind). I wanted to build a road to that tile but when I told the worker to build a road to that tile it would not go. So I moved a unit to the tile so it was sitting on the tile with the artillary, then it allowed me to give a build road to that tile command.

    It was sort of like loading units on a boat, if you were not adjacent to the boat you could not load, but in this case, once you have a unit on the tile you can.

    edit:

    BTW, Once an AI goes on this tile with an offensive unit, you can't use the goto command to get off the tile you must step off to an adjacent tile and then you can use the goto command from the adjacent tile.
     
  14. Blue Monkey

    Blue Monkey Archon Without Portfolio

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    In the immobile artillery example was the HN unit originally yours or was it captured? It's not clear to me from the description of the situation. I'm wondering if the game engine makes a distinction on possession of the tile between those two cases.

    If it was a capturable unit what were its stats? I can see a potential exploit - using such a unit as a capturable redoubt, force field generator, etc.
     
  15. Pounder

    Pounder Phaethon was here

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    An AI Razed another AI city and that artillery was left behind because it is immobile, because it is immobile hidden nationality it does not go back to the capital.

    The civ has since been detroyed and the artillery remains even though the civ was destoyed, now no one can fire that artillery.
     
  16. Blue Monkey

    Blue Monkey Archon Without Portfolio

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    One last question on this example:

    What happens when another civ's unit moves onto the hn artillery?

    I can see a potential use as a telepad.
     
  17. Pounder

    Pounder Phaethon was here

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    They just occupy the same tile.

    Actually, I'm thinking that this could be used to expand on ruins.

    Maybe units could be generated by buildings during the life of the city. When the city is razed, the unit animation could be animated ruins complete with fire and smoke.
     
  18. Blue Monkey

    Blue Monkey Archon Without Portfolio

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    Sorry, I wasn't clear. Does the unit's allegiance change to whatever civ's unit(s) occupy the same tile?

    Good idea re ruins, by the way.
     
  19. Pounder

    Pounder Phaethon was here

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  20. Moosezilla

    Moosezilla Grognard Warlord

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    The unit must have a 0 defense?
     

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