Hidden Nationality: Some oddities

[WarKirby]

Alright, as far as I understand, hidden nationality works as follows

The allegiance of the unit is hidden, effevctively having them viewed as barbarians
Units with the promotion can attack, and be attacked, without diplomatic consequences.

Now, I've just observed two odd situations concerning it. I'm not sure if they're bugs, but it doesn't seem logical


1. A Kurio hunter captures a giant spider. I know this because despite having hidden nationality, it still shows as a kurio unit. That seems wrong. Although it has the hidden nationality promotion, it's nationality is not hidden.

2. I have a hidden nationality unit defending in a city (stooge, along with a warrior). The same aforementioned hunter attacks and kills my hill giant in the city.

Now, I know that attacking such units isn't considered an act of war. But this giant was in my city. He had to send a military unit INTO MY CITY to attack it. How can that not be an act of war ?

 

[xalien]

If you have open borders with them then he can move freely through your territory, he simply saw a "barbarian" unit in your city and did you a "favour" by killing it.

As for unit with HN promotion showing true nationality, that sounds like a bug.

 

[Inkling]

If you have open borders with them then he can move freely through your territory, he simply saw a "barbarian" unit in your city and did you a "favour" by killing it.

As for unit with HN promotion showing true nationality, that sounds like a bug.

it does seem like there should be someplace hidden nationality units are safe to store, especially for units which once nationalized, can't go covert again. I mean it is your nation right, if you were a vassal, thats one thing, but with open borders it seems like it means nations can camp in your palace and play ping pong in the throne room in their down time. its a little too open.

 

[WarKirby]

Fighting inside someone's city should be an act of war, regardless of the alligiance of the unit.

 

[Keeper_GFA]

1. A Kurio hunter captures a giant spider. I know this because despite having hidden nationality, it still shows as a kurio unit. That seems wrong. Although it has the hidden nationality promotion, it's nationality is not hidden.

Does it still have the hidden nationality promotion? The AI could have just used the declare nationality ability after capturing the spider.

 

[Sarisin]

1. A Kurio hunter captures a giant spider. I know this because despite having hidden nationality, it still shows as a kurio unit. That seems wrong. Although it has the hidden nationality promotion, it's nationality is not hidden.

I don't think this is true. The captured Giant Spider would be sporting the black Barb flag. I often see units with this designation wandering through the AI civs' territory. It's pretty clear they are HN though or the AI would attack them.

Also, I think regular barb animals still cannot cross into your or the AI's territory, so if you see one there, it likely is HN.

It is a pain when a 'friendly' unit from a civ you have an open borders agreement with kills one of your HN guys, but as stated, the AI thinks it is an enemy barb.

 

[zup]

Did you check if the spider still had hn promotion? If not, there should not be a problem.

 

[WarKirby]

It may not have actually, hmm. I'm not sure now.

 

[Micky Onimusha]

Yeah, I've had bad experiences with HN units being built. Svartalfar game, built Alazkan and in that same turn (before I even had a chance to move him/use him) the Hippus stormed in and murdered him: "Thanks buddies! "

The lesson it taught me was to keep my borders closed when building him, but there really should be something in place to stop HN units being killed inside cities.

But there are a few problems with HN units as it is, like it being incredibly obvious who they belong to (see the Hill giants, Pirates, Veil of Night units etc.) but they're more MP issues than SP issues. Regardless, it's a bit buggy that they can be attacked within a city, but at least it isn't an overwhelming issue... just taught me a harsh lesson (aka made me reload an auto-save...losing Alazkan over a bug? Yeah right! )

 

[Caradoc]

Do AIs still attack HN units that are on non-HN boats?

 

[Sarisin]

That used to be a feature - HN units could not be killed in cities. However, for some reason it was changed a few versions back.

I tended to keep them in cities and pick off wandering 'friendly' units in my territory always able to rush back to the safety of the city. However, now I find other civs' units hunt them out and you have to close your borders to protect them.

Or build Nox Noctis and they can't see them.

 

[Neomega]

Fighting inside someone's city should be an act of war, regardless of the alligiance of the unit.

No no no. Masked units are barbs. Thats the whole point. masked units are for underground wars. You kill declared units with impunity, they kill your masked units with impunity. I think the AI does keep suspicions though. I was slaughtering a stack of trapped clan units with a bunch of masked units, and the clan declared war on me after two turns and about 10 dead units.

 

[Neomega]

Fighting inside someone's city should be an act of war, regardless of the alligiance of the unit.

No no no. Masked units are barbs. Thats the whole point. masked units are for underground wars. You kill units with them with impunity, they kill your units with impunity. I think the AI does keep suspicions though. I was slaughtering a stack of trapped clan units with a bunch of masked units, and the clan declared war on me after two turns and about 10 dead units.

It could be argued that the fact that you are "harboring terrorists" in your cities would be an act of war.

 

[SwampCow]

The most annoying thing is when you research Deception and before you ever even get a chance to use the archer unit you receive, a friendly civ charges into your city and kills him. Maybe it would be a good idea to give that initial archer unit invis.

 

[Sarisin]

No no no. Masked units are barbs. Thats the whole point. masked units are for underground wars. You kill units with them with impunity, they kill your units with impunity. I think the AI does keep suspicions though. I was slaughtering a stack of trapped clan units with a bunch of masked units, and the clan declared war on me after two turns and about 10 dead units.

It could be argued that the fact that you are "harboring terrorists" in your cities would be an act of war.

I agree with you. I often take the HN Stooges out on a pillaging and killing spree to add to my Gold and their XP in the lands of civs that are ahead of me pointwise.

Sometimes, out of the blue they will declare war on me.

Also, one trick I like is to clean out the defenders in one of their cities and let a barbarian capture or raze it (if pop. less than 1, as barbs never raze otherwise). If the latter, the relations will show "you razed one of our cities" even though you have never been at war with them.

 

[SwampCow]

Also, one trick I like is to clean out the defenders in one of their cities and let a barbarian capture or raze it (if pop. less than 1, as barbs never raze otherwise). If the latter, the relations will show "you razed one of our cities" even though you have never been at war with them.

Another good tactic is to clean out one of their border cities of men and turn it into a unit sink. The AI will send a constant stream of units to the city to keep it from being undefended. You can farm the XP for the giants and as well as eat up valuable hammers that the AI is throwing away in a desperate attempt to keep the city defended.

 

[phoulishwan]

I agree with you. I often take the HN Stooges out on a pillaging and killing spree to add to my Gold and their XP in the lands of civs that are ahead of me pointwise.

Sometimes, out of the blue they will declare war on me.

Also, one trick I like is to clean out the defenders in one of their cities and let a barbarian capture or raze it (if pop. less than 1, as barbs never raze otherwise). If the latter, the relations will show "you razed one of our cities" even though you have never been at war with them.

To be fair, I can usually figure out pretty easily who owns the HN units that try to come attack me and I do also fix the issue by declaring on the offending AI to take out their HN producing city, unless they're easy xp, then they can keep spending their hammers to provide me with xp

 

[orgonebox]

As some posters have already suggested, hidden nationality works best in the early game. The only hidden nationality units that work in the late game are upgraded esus recon units and shadows/shadowriders. I second/third the tactic of emptying out a civ's defenders with a stooge or spider or bear and waiting until barbs take the city. Saves the time and effort and unhappiness of a full-scale war and all you have to do is declare and take the city.

Now it would be sweet if esus allowed mercenaries with a hide spell. Hire someone to do the dirty work.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I agree with you. I often take the HN Stooges out on a pillaging and killing spree to add to my Gold and their XP in the lands of civs that are ahead of me pointwise.

Sometimes, out of the blue they will declare war on me.

Also, one trick I like is to clean out the defenders in one of their cities and let a barbarian capture or raze it (if pop. less than 1, as barbs never raze otherwise). If the latter, the relations will show "you razed one of our cities" even though you have never been at war with them.

that sounds like a bug, should be posted in the bug thread imho

 

[westamastaflash]

Which is why i hate open borders, and never sign agreements thereto...