High Score - 15M+ : Pre-game Discussion

[WastinTime]

15 million+ Score - pregame discussion

(Couldn't start generating maps even if I wanted to until BUFFY version 005 is out.)

General plan:
Improving on the lessons from my BC Space Launch:
Squeeze 500 cities under the raised, 76% domination limit.
Use the WonderBread Economy to get Kremlin ~T225, Sushi <T260
Then use the STRIKE economy for a conquest/domination win ~T460

Map - not much discussion here. I used to debate some of this:
Huge, Big and Small, marathon, massive, islands mixed in, arid temperate arid, low seas?, city razing allowed, aggressive AI, huts and events, no barbs
(edit: still not sure on arid/temperate)

Leaders - I think I could play non-Inca this time . Who would you play to maximize score? and why?

Opponents - Use the usual suspects? or pick some new blood? I have a new strategic selection criteria I may try out.

Starting Location - Should I go with my usual multi-gold start? or the more food-friendly gems? What about Fur as an early commerce source?
Or, based on a possible non-Inca leader, do I need non-farmed food like Deer? seafood?
What about breaking all the rules and playing a multi-food start with no commerce resource? Food is king after all.

Feel free to start discussing any of the above topics. I'll post my analysis of each.

Historical links:
2012 attempt to get 5M score

Major Gauntlet 144: breaking 10M Score

 

[WastinTime]

Useful Links

PHI trait analysis and GS plans (obsolete)
New PHI GS plans
Getting cities packed in. Gifting/razing badly placed ones

-----------------------

Notes from GM-144 (Huge, Score, Deity, Inca)

Cities
16 @T150
43 @T256

Tech
AI Feudalism ~235
sushi T281 with only 13

 

[babybluepants]

Leaders - I think I could play non-Inca this time . Who would you play to maximize score? and why?

Is IND essential for WB? Ramesses?
Or would PHI be better? Can you expand enough without an early UU?

 

[dutchfire]

Conquest win? Not domination? I would think that domination would be easier to trigger (esp. after the strike monster ate your army), just pop some settlers.

 

[elitetroops]

I assume conquest means capitulating all the remaining AI on the final turn to also receive score from their pop and land. Then it will likely be a coin toss between conquest and domination.

I think you showed in that deity/large/mara/conquest/highlands gauntlet a long time ago that you can expand rather quickly also without a UU. What do you think would be your preferred unit to war with if you have no UU?

A while ago I would have suggested Elizabeth, but now I'm not sure. With WB economy IND seems quite essential. How about a wild card - De Gaulle. IND is obvious, CHA is a great trait for HA warfare and the extra happiness could help with all the failgold whippage you'll be doing. Great starting techs as well! Maybe Musketeers even would come into play here, as I assume you'll have gunpowder before the AI is ready to put up a good fight for them.

 

[nocho]

Great, another interesting thread to follow the coming 18 months!

Forgive me my ignorance, but why an arid map over, say, temperate?

 

[El Bogus]

Leaders - I think I could play non-Inca this time . Who would you play to maximize score? and why?

I guess expansive would be good to maximize score. +2 can effectively be +2 . Bismarck seems like an obvious choice for being also industrious. He has no early UU, though. So Pacal (financial is useless in STRIKE economy, Ball Court gives +3 (!) happiness) and Shaka (Ikhanda may be useful, aggressive helps Impis) seem possible, too.

 

[babybluepants]

Opponents - Use the usual suspects? or pick some new blood? I have a new strategic selection criteria I may try out.
(link TBD)

I was wondering if you could base this on derivative civs somehow to control who the clones are, but it doesn't seem like there's much there. America is a quite common derivative, but most civs have none.

 

[Bandobras Took]

You've said that Industrious is even more important to you now; does that mean it's a vital trait, or are you going to mix it up and try a non-industrious leader?

 

[WastinTime]

What do you think would be your preferred unit to war with if you have no UU?

I'm leaning towards short Axe-rush, then HAs, then knights. Since I'm rushing to Kremlin, I need guilds along the way. Some sort of 2-mover army, since I need to conquer everyone super-fast so I can go into STRIKE. Musketeers are an interesting idea. Draftable! I could also attempt the infamous warrior-rush. A stack of 10-12 warriors to capture a nearby, flat-land city with copper in the 1st ring.

I was wondering if you could base this on derivative civs somehow to control who the clones are, but it doesn't seem like there's much there. America is a quite common derivative, but most civs have none.

interesting, but I suppose I don't really care who the clones are.

I guess expansive would be good to maximize score. +2 can effectively be +2 .

I like EXP too. Not primarily because of the +2. It's for cheap granaries. I'll have ~500 cities with only a granary.

why an arid map over, say, temperate?

Arid lowers the map's population value. That goes directly into the score calculation resulting in about 300K - 400K boost in final score. I'll cover score calc in detail later. I debated this a while back. The extra forests are nice and could get me to sushi faster, but I can manage with out so many forest, and not settle the desert areas to have that score benefit.
Also, every time you settle on a desert tile, you turn that into a 2 tile, but the map's original population value does not change.

Then it will likely be a coin toss between conquest and domination.

Right, I want every population point I can get, so I'll conquer the remaining, but you're right that it would be a coin toss.

RE: IND trait. It's good for wonderbread, but useless for the first ~75 turns and last ~200 turns of the game. I'm going to try to live without it.
Kremlin is >> IND for failgold and my goal is to have that by T225.

You've said that Industrious is even more important to you now

Not sure what context I said that. Maybe back when I was skipping Kremlin. I'm definitely trying to go with something else.

Or would PHI be better?

PHI has always been the one thing the evil Inca are missing.

 

[Imploding]

Great stuff.. will definitely follow this new series.

Leaders - I think I could play non-Inca this time . Who would you play to maximize score? and why?
(link TBD)

What about Suliman?

Starting techs.. the wheel and agi.

IMP gives fast rexx for grabbing key spots.. and 500 cities will give roughly 15 000-25 000 hammers saved. More importantly is that the big expand will come faster will estimate 20-40%.. Also gives the ability to quickly 2 pop whip settlers from new cities.. getting size 4 is a breeze with 1-2 decent food tiles... not sure how that works on marathon tho..
The faster generals would also put a nice punch into the army.. early and later.

PHI: is great.. wonder how the earlier great people will influence the grand strategies.

UU.. The Janissary is draftable gets 25 % vs melee archer and mounted. That is all the unit types you are likely going up against.
The UB might also help some.. 2 + happy from an aquaduct

 

[Swordnboard]

I'm not WastinTime, but if I were...
I would play inca. It's rather boring, but they have so many advantages which are basically irreplaceable, and this game will probably be another yearlong affair

• Prime trait combination (EXP, PHI, and CRE also seem good to me, though)
• Game-Changing UU:
  • Vastly different early conquest dynamics--may be important on huge since warring period may last longer
  • Allows for actually useful early whip-gold generation
  • Usable longer for MP and strike-sacrifice purposes (even longer than in the space game since railroad/rifling aren't priorities here)
• Game-Changing UB:
  • Allows better city-gifting since it provides culture and isn't destroyed on conquest
  • Compensates for much of the (quite good IMO) creative trait
  • Will be used in every city

That being said, I would love to see a different leader. The main trait that excites me is PHI, and with that in mind I might consider Gandhi. Fast worker has a similar (if slightly weaker) potential to snowball the game from the start compared to the Q, and if many more GP can push forward Kremlin/Sushi dates, then maybe there is a case to be made. SPI doesn't seem that good, but I guess even the revolt-to-slavery turns add up.

 

[Kaitzilla]

For highest Score, I think anyone who can get Sushi the fastest is the best pick.

Rolling a map with absurdly high amounts of seafood would also be a huge help.
Did anyone figure out any way to tell on Turn 0 if a map was loaded or a dud?

 

[WastinTime]

IMP gives fast rexx for grabbing key spot

Considering IMP. But i rarely build more than 1 settler for the land grab. Instead, I'm thinking 1 pop is 270h with kremlin...need to test. I could whip 100 settlers between kremlin and sushi and get max OF for wonderbread. I need those island cities and seafood netted asap

 

[WastinTime]

UU.. The Janissary is draftable gets 25 % vs melee archer and mounted.

yes, but only moves 1. That's painful on Huge

 

[Fippy]

Hmm..Darius for obvious reasons, Peter for great traits maybe.
Imploding's suggestion with Sulei is also nice, depends what support trait for PHI you value higher?

If no PHI, i would find it very hard looking past Darius, just for Immortals and better traits than Egypt.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Not sure what context I said that. Maybe back when I was skipping Kremlin. I'm definitely trying to go with something else.

It's in your Wonder Bread Economy explanation.

If you're looking for really oddball choices, go with the Khmer.

 

[WastinTime]

If you're looking for really oddball choices, go with the Khmer.

He's on the list too.

I've been putting more thought into IMP ever since I wrote...

Considering IMP. But i rarely build more than 1 settler for the land grab.

That sounds like a player only thinking inside the box. Going with my usual conquer instead of build settlers.
But maybe I need to analyze whether a peaceful expansion with IMP could actually keep up with the Incan early game. Maybe since this a huge map game, it has a chance.

I'll dig into each trait and try to figure out how much it really affects final score. Does getting to sushi 1-5 turns faster really matter as much as other, population-friendly game mechanics? We'll see.

 

[WastinTime]

To help value the various game elements, we will need the effect on score:
They're not linear, but in the context of a 15M score game ending around T450...

1 population = ~1,000 final score
1 turn faster = ~80,000
1 tech = ~1,400

land is irrelevant because you'll have 75.xx% and you can't add 100's of land tiles on the final turn because you have to own land for like 20 turns before it gets added to score.

Tech:
Even if I get 80 Future tech instead of just 30, that's only +70,000 score. I won't ignore research, but I won't value late research very much. It will happen whether I want it or not just because of my huge population. I still want Genetics for +3 health, and some FutureTech for +1 happy&health. Some other post-sushi techs could have value too.

So, no surprise, it's all about finishing fast and with max population.
Since we're thinking about picking leader right now, which one can get that extra population without losing too many turns?

 

[Noble Zarkon]

15m

Looking forward to this!