1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

High Score - 15M+ : Pre-game Discussion

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by WastinTime, Mar 28, 2018.

  1. Powerfaker

    Powerfaker Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2016
    Messages:
    94
    The impression I get so far:
    Game opening needs a kick that competes with quecha (Imp, combined rex/conquest?)
    First half of the game as always eco traits (Fin/Org/Phi/Ind) are preferred to reach Sushi/Kremlin fast.
    Second half of the game happy/health traits (Exp/Cha) are preferred to boost pop, assuming Future tech are likely to come into play too late to stay away from happy/health problems. All other traits are more or less obsolete now anyhow.

    Looking into score calculation (huge/marathon, ± T400 win date, >20k pop):
    => Every turn delay of victory needs to be offset by ± 0,65% pop increase to prevent score going down. At >20k pop that means >130 popgrowth per turn (500 cities, a city needs to grow every 4 turns)
    So later win date with higher pop from happy/health traits or earlier win date with lower pop from eco techs? I think the eco's win. (or is this too much simplified?)

    So IMO the best leader would be one with eco traits and a good game opener.
    I keep circling back to Darius, eco+immortal (starts with both AH pre-techs), potentially 6F health boosting UB. How unfortunate is a scout start if you could pop more huts? Should get you a tech more easy, maybe a warrior on the side.......
    The army would need to chopped rather than slaved probably. But since you don't need to build so much compaired to space game, that should be fine? Conquest on huge needs to be done with mounted..........

    Almost all Imp (and Phi) leaders (notably not Suleiman) have poor starting techs which kinda spoils a possible jump start, no quick granaries fe. An optimal seafood start with Romans/Joao/Vicky will still not beat Gold/Gems at the start in a more central location.
    With max opponents on huge, are civ's placed on the map in pairs like on large? You would have a guaranteed war victim and not just need to rely on peace rex.

    As for Temperate/Tropical/Arid/Rocky/Cold => Only Cold maps have significant lower popmax. All others are the same.
    So Rocky/Cold/Arid are probably the ones you don't want. Rocky has been mentioned, AI hillcities and such. Cold will just make everything go slower. Arid contains increased floodplains that offset desert, thus overall increased unhealthy.
    I think Tropical jungle counts as 1F and has therefore the biggest potential to raise foodlevel, but is also a huge job to cut.
     
  2. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    15,230
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    California
    Happy is not required to boost pop. Once the city grows larger than its workable food tiles, I don't really care if it is an angry citizen or scientist. Or at least I don't care enough to bother with a trait like CHA to give late happy. There is also RockNRoll, Broadway, etc.
     
  3. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    15,230
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    California
    I'm not aware of this feature. Please elaborate.
     
  4. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    15,230
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    California
    Arid seems to have a consistently lower popmax in my samples. Are you saying cold is even lower than that?
    Tropical > Temperate > Arid

    And then there's the fact that Arid seems to have a higher sushi count. Like +10:food: per city. Not sure I can ignore that. It could be the only thing that matters.
     
  5. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    15,230
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    California
    :devil: The most important post of this thread

    I plan to make a lot of decisions based on the logic of this post. If the logic is wrong, then I'll make bad choices.
    Then again, if my assumption that 'this is the most important post' is wrong, then this post won't make or break me. :p

    Myth: A player who shall remain nameless once concluded that every time you whip, build a settler, or in any way hinder your growth, you're ultimately lowering your score because the city is behind in population from where it could have been if you had not whipped, built a settler, etc.

    The Myth leads you to believe the best strategy is to have every bit of food available from the first turn of sushi. If you only start with ~10:food: and don't have that extra +50:food:, you're losing 2500 food over 50 turns in that city.

    Example: 2 identical cities. city1 whips 2 pop, city2 doesn't. So depending on size, city1 is say ~100:food: behind city2 right now. You might falsely conclude that at the end of the game, when cities are size 30+, 100 food means city 2 will likely be 1 pop larger than city1.
    But the fact is, city1 will catch up to city2 given enough turns. Here's why:
    Once city2 grows to a size where the new citizen has no food tiles to work, it's got to feed that citizen. So right after the city1's whip, it's 2 pop smaller so it doesn't have to spend 4 food each turn to feed those citizens. (or 6 food per turn if the city is unhealthy).
    You can see how the 100 food advantage of city2 gets reduced. It could be down as low as 40 in just 10 turns.

    City1 eventually gains +1 pop, so now city2 is burning -2 (or -3) fpt more each turn.
    It could take a while, but that last 40 food will go to zero in less than 20 turns.

    So 50 turns might be enough for city1 to fully catch up to city2, but since you might whip many more than just 2 pop, we'd probably want to allow for 100 turns of recovery. Recall that it takes 150-200 turns of growth after sushi.

    What strategy comes out of this?
    - not necessary to settle every island and connect all sushi super early.
    - since we don't need so much sushi so early, we won't need to immediately enter STRIKE to pay for it.
    - probably even give away sushi resources for a while to keep research going.
    - go ahead and whip like mad after kremlin and continue to do so after sushi for at least 50 turns, probably 100 turns.

    Let me re-state my assumption: I've concluded that my cities can grow to their max sustainable size in the last 100 turns.
    So there's no point in trying to get much of a headstart on growth.
    More implications:
    - I don't really care about health issues until the final 100 turns, when it's time to grow to max size.
    Therefore, if I can assume I'll have FutureTech rolling in by then, EXP trait's health, grocers, harbors, etc. all have no effect on score. Those things save on food 150-300 turns before the end of the game, but not during the growth phase (final 100 turns.)
    - grocer, harbor, aqueduct, etc. not needed for final score, however, it doesn't mean they can't pay for themselves in some early cities. I'll need to calculate cases where building those (possibly with mining Inc hammers or whipping) will give back enough food before FutureTech solves that problem.

    I'm sure I'll have to edit and revisit this. It should have more strategy implications given time to sink in.
     
    Kaitzilla likes this.
  6. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    15,230
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    California
    EXP trait

    Let's kill it rt now.
    I already devalued the +2 health in the previous post.

    Cheap granaries is the other benefit. I was thinking it would affect score because your last 100 cities to get sushi can't afford to 2-pop whip a granary. That's during the final ~60-80 turns, the critical growth phase. Every pop sacrificed here may not be recovered. (again, here I am using the 'most important post' logic above)

    Solution:
    I can rush-buy the final 100 granaries for ~350:gold: each. But STRIKE dictates that I do them all on the same turn: 35,000 :gold:. I do that by setting off a giant wonderbread bomb. This means I only have to spend 1 turn in Universal Suffrage.

    But wait, I also should buy ~100 lighthouses, so 70,000:gold:. No problem. That's just 70 cities with 1,000 failgold. Doable, or maybe I just do the final 80 cities. I can do this turn any time after I've settled my 75.9%.

    The only other benefit EXP could have on score is how those fast granaries help you get to sushi faster and ultimately end the game sooner. Can they save 1 turn? more? or have no effect on the sushi date?

    Not sure, but I think EXP is off the list.
     
  7. ikotomi

    ikotomi Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2015
    Messages:
    320
    Are courthouses/Wall Street going to be useful since you're not planning on using the strike economy until later? Since you're going for future tech, doesn't the strike economy with Sushi still get you there faster?
     
  8. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    15,230
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    California
    Not sure PHI was ever really gone, but In case you missed it, I concluded that I needed Mining Inc a while back.

    The return of PHI

    I had also upped the value of saving 1 turn to 80,000 points, which re-enforces that earliest possible sushi is important.
    Therefore, I've concluded that squeezing in the GE at 300 gpp would be a mistake. Nothing should delay sushi and this would to push back the GS bulbs. Each GPfarm would need another 300gpp. I'm fairly certain that the critical path to sushi is GS bulbs. Edu, Chem, PPress, 2xSciMeth, 3xBiology is 8 GS and you need one random GP at 300gpp to kick off the GAge.

    Conclusion: the GE has to be GP #10. Luckily, it's not #11 when they start to get more expensive (3600). Still, we'll have to finish the trek to 3000 GPP after parthenon is obsolete and after the GAge's +100% is over. A PHI leader can still get +200% with Pacifism. We will get a post-sushi golden age from a random event like Guns/Butter or SportsLeague, and/or Taj

    Quick calculation on whether a 100% pure GE can be born at 3000.
    This was my plan with early Kremlin (now obsolete). Now the parthenon will run longer. The Taj GAge is needed 2nd. Music+spy triggers #3.

    By T170, the GE city can have forge, Mids, HangingG. That's 7gpp -- 14gpp for PHI.
    So by T200, it's got 420gpp (assuming 300gpp was born somewhere T190)
    Then 24 turns of Pacifism+Parthenon+GAge @ 31 gpp/turn = 1164 gpp
    Then 5t of slavery--no GAge, no parthenon = 1269 gpp
    Then 24 turns of GAge+Pacifism @ 28gpp/t = 1941 gpp
    Then (Taj) 25 turns GAge and throw in HagiaSofia @36gpp/t = 2841 gpp
    6 turns later (around T285) we get a 100% GE for Mining Inc.
    That should be soon enough.

    So the fast GS's and the followup GE mean, once and for all, that a PHI leader is necessary.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
  9. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    15,230
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    California
    I'm considering them, but I suspect that it makes sense to just go with limited sushi for a short time, and then once mining hits too I'll want to turn on all the power those 2 corps provide, so it will be STRIKE time. Would it be worth it to do all those courthouses just for a couple dozen turns of low level sushi?
    The problem with sushi is that you don't get the instant benefit like mining. You have to wait for cities to grow and slowly add value. It will be very hard to get to mining Inc if sushi is fully turned on--in strike. You can't get to mining with build research, it would be all scientists.
     
  10. ikotomi

    ikotomi Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2015
    Messages:
    320
    I guess it's hard to wrap my head around score games, but mining first would delay sushi by about 10-15 turns? But you're not exactly losing 10 turns of sushi because those turns would be a light version due to the need for a traditional economy. How much does going sushi first delay mining?
     
  11. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    15,230
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    California
    I don't really care about fast mining this time. Every turn on sushi is 80,000 points. It doesn't matter if you run max food right away or 10, 20, 50 turns of gifting away resources--the light version. The critical thing is getting all cities with sushi. I'll try to switch on max food as soon as I can. Probably by turn 300 or 320.
    Mining is just needed to eventually get to futuretech and just makes life easier as I previously outlined. For a change, I'm not going stress over when I get mining.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
  12. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

    Joined:
    May 31, 2006
    Messages:
    11,744
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    I always like Mining first because it makes cranking out executives much easier with less intensive MM. I know you are aware of the pros and cons of Sushi vs. Mining so if you say Sushi first is important, I believe you. ;)
     
  13. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    15,230
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    California
    Well, until recently the plan was sushi only. No mining. So in the case of score, I'm confident sushi has to go first. I definitely like Mining first for Space.
     
  14. ikotomi

    ikotomi Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2015
    Messages:
    320
    For your calculations, you would have the pyramids for quite a while before the forge and HG (assuming you build them yourself), so it should come up quite a few turns earlier. You'll probably be on top of it, but you would need to make sure that the city doesn't catch up to any of your cities running scientists before your 10th gp.
     
  15. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    15,230
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    California
    I sometimes don't build mids til 200 or even capture mids from the AI. I'll have to rush it this time.
    Anything that I do get going with the GE points earlier than 170 will be pretty small and won't affect when I get to 3000 more than 1 turn.

    As far as the city catching up to GS farms. No way, they're all cranking at twice the pace. The only thing I have to do is make sure it doesn't get to 300 first. I can always pull the engineer off-duty if I need to slow the city down. The 300 is a mud-blood, so it can use points from probably Oracle mixed with scientist, etc. That city should easily pass the GE city on the way to 300.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
  16. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Messages:
    14,106
    Location:
    -
    Are you going to be playing with events on? There are some nice events but also some nasty ones. It probably pays of to keep track of events happening elsewhere, as this shows you which events are active in this game.
     
  17. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    15,230
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    California
    Yea, events are fun and exciting. The good far outweigh the bad.
     
  18. MikalJ

    MikalJ Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2008
    Messages:
    33
    Location:
    England
    Subscribing. I don't think these make me a better Civ player (I'm too lazy), but I certainly enjoy watching this analytical thought play out.
     
  19. Macksideshow

    Macksideshow Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2013
    Messages:
    382
    Is it worth rethinking the Sid's Sushi vs Cereal Mills equation? I know you like to be thorough.

    A quick google pulled up this thread:
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/cereal-mills-vs-sids-sushi.454187/

    Some interesting points:
    • A big advantage of Sushi is that it is available sooner. Does MIP logic reduce this advantage?
    • Cereal requires less resources per food, therefore cost less maintenance. Probably not significant in a post wonderbread world though?
    • Cereal does not produce culture. Could you therefore get more cities for same land area leading to more overall pop despite a lower corp food yield?
    We can all imagine map settings to maximise seafood (and I admit this will be hard to beat). But could there exist some map setting which yields a heap of cereal? What is the accepted best cereal setup?

    Is it all about the corps food yield? Could having more land tiles for Cereal also yield more food directly with more food resources and farmable tiles? Could that offset a lower Cereal Mills food yield? More land also = more cities?
     
  20. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    15,230
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    California
    I often use a couple cereal mills in my border cities because of the culture expanding borders, but other than that, it can't compete with sushi. I tried to look for a map with crazy amt. of cereal. I thought maybe rainforest with all the rice, but it's too many pigs and bananas. Severe lack of corn/wheat.

    But even if rainforest had more food, it still has the problem of getting 400-500 cities. Need islands for that.
     

Share This Page