1. We have added the ability to collapse/expand forum categories and widgets on forum home.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. All Civ avatars are brought back and available for selection in the Avatar Gallery! There are 945 avatars total.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. To make the site more secure, we have installed SSL certificates and enabled HTTPS for both the main site and forums.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Civ6 is released! Order now! (Amazon US | Amazon UK | Amazon CA | Amazon DE | Amazon FR)
    Dismiss Notice
  5. Dismiss Notice
  6. Forum account upgrades are available for ad-free browsing.
    Dismiss Notice

High Score - 15M+ : Pre-game Discussion

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by WastinTime, Mar 28, 2018.

  1. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 21, 2018
    Messages:
    17
    Gender:
    Male
    Slight correction to what I said above: While able to train Warriors, you can at most also build Maces (if Copper is hooked up), Muskets, Chariots and Cats/Trebs. I forgot that Maces can be build with Copper as well as Iron, but having them unlocked and Copper hooked up doesn't obsolete Warriors. Having Iron hooked up will obsolete Warriors, even without Engineering, because Swordsman will obsolete Warriors.

    Also something I just quickly checked, Janissaries get obsoleted by Rifleman, same as normal Muskets.
     
  2. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    15,138
    Gender:
    Male
    This one I've got worked out. I tried to do exactly what you said in GM-144. My goal was to get 10M and do it in the timeframe of a gauntlet which is just a few months, so I went with faster finish--less islands. IIRC: ~350-400 cities. I got 10M, but Kaitzilla got 11M. He finished over 40 turns later than I did, but had over 400 cities.

    I came to the conclusion that population is #1. You have to get as many cities as possible, and they all need sushi. Fast finish is important, but secondary.

    I feel like I can conquer any AI. They don't have to be creampuffs, so why not play against (mostly) the farmers? The AI will improve lots of tiles. Every flatland, freshwater tile could get farmed for me. If that's 4 farms per city, 50 cities. That's 200 farms @ 15 worker turns per farm. 3000 worker turns.
     
  3. Pedro78

    Pedro78 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2016
    Messages:
    900
    Of course you can conquer any AI. But creampuffs require less units, allowing you to both conquer faster & put put more juice into WBE. Non-farmers do also build farms, that's why I said ~1Farm per city. I'm not sure about the numbers, but it would def be worth testing. Just put a "farmer" on an small island with 4-5 pre-settled cities, press end turn 200 times and count the farms. Then make a wb-save of the start and swap the farmer AI with a non-farmer AI, rinse and repeat, and see how many more farms you've got. I don't think it will make a huge difference, whereas needing less units in the early turns makes a lot of difference. Now if you really get 200 extra free farms it might be worth it, but I doubt you'll get that much.

    By the way, I got a question if I may -- I opened some of your saves, and it seems like you simply never run into metal units, even when it's quite late (in the last Large-Boreal-Deity-Domination gauntlet you didn't kill a single Axeman :eek:). I know a few ways to cut away an AI from metals, but how can you possibly prevent 10+ AIs from building a single metal unit until close to 1AD? Was there a big part of luck to it or does this game hide some kind of dark secret?
     
  4. Anysense

    Anysense Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2015
    Messages:
    520
    I always preferred cottages because, you know, they are really good for pillaging. But score games are different, especially on marathon, so it probably does not matter how much gold you can have from pillaging.
     
    sampsa likes this.
  5. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2012
    Messages:
    4,057
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Fife, Scotland
    The ones where the AI get metal don't make it into the Hall of Fame! :D
     
  6. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    15,138
    Gender:
    Male
    must be luck. I never thought about it or noticed that I have any less metal units than anyone else at the same time in the game. Are you talking about the Highlands game?
    Maybe the AI sees all my horse units and makes spears instead of axes.
    I know I often think how great it would be to send 1 chariot to each AI to deny metal, but there's never enough units for that. As soon has I have 6-8 units I want to take a city, not have them wandering around. And if you did that, you'd be at war with almost everyone simultaneously.
     
  7. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    15,138
    Gender:
    Male
    You might be right. I might be overconfident. I rarely play with some of the more aggressive AI, so it could be a rude awakening. Maybe I'll take your advice and cut the ones with high 'unit building' attributes. I was sorta assuming all the AI have to build settlers, workers, granaries, barracks, even a library once the building is available. So there really isn't much difference in units I require to kill them. I only avoid AI with troublesome UUs. One reason I was leaning towards a bigger mix of 'bad guys' is because if you have all good guys, then they all get mad at you for 'declaring on my friend'. I'd like to have more AI to beat on early and still have plenty of AI that will trade resources and tech. And Gandhi gives you -2 for each DoW!. I can't always bank on having DeGaulle next to me. Brennus' name has been thrown around a lot for absorbing hate. Peter is another of my favorites.
     
  8. Mitchum

    Mitchum Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 31, 2006
    Messages:
    11,743
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Don't sell yourself short. The way you manipulate the AI is uncanny. If it happened once or twice, I would say it was lucky. But I've seen you do it time and again so it must be something else. In other words, the Force is a better answer than luck.
     
  9. Pedro78

    Pedro78 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2016
    Messages:
    900
    Nope I'm talking about this one: http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/game_info.php?entryID=29551
    Didn't kill a single Axe, Spear or sword until 110BC domination. Only Archers and Chariots. There's probably some luck involved, but probably also some tricks that I don't know about.

    The unit-spammers build units before anything else. Even @3000BC Shaka/Nappy will probably have a couple more Archers than Gandhi/Linc (and they'll have real stacks of Archers by 2500BC no doubt on Marathon). I'd definitely avoid the unit spammers with unitprob > 35 and try to minimize the number of unitprob>30.

    Guys like Ramesses, Augustus, Hannibal, Isabella, Stalin aren't horrible choices either, and have low enough peaceweights not to bring you hate from every good AI. Gotta watch out for Praets though.
     
  10. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 21, 2018
    Messages:
    17
    Gender:
    Male
    I've seen aggressive AI's go WHEOOHRN long before they ran out of space to settle, tiles to improve or stuff to build. That might be different in your game (different difficulty/setting/diplomacy game), but if you end up having to pick on Shaka and he later goes full unit spam mode...
     
  11. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    15,138
    Gender:
    Male
    That was a really odd game. I only killed 3 AI and took like 8 vassals (peacefully or with no kills)
    I also only had 2 copper at the end of the game (with 53% land). So there wasn't much copper, and it makes sense that I could quickly kill 3 AI before they got iron. I picked the AI that didn't have copper.
     
    Pedro78 likes this.
  12. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    15,138
    Gender:
    Male
    Thx guys for the tips on opponents. I'm sufficiently scared. I'll scale back on the unit spammers for sure.
     
  13. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    15,138
    Gender:
    Male
    I played another Suleiman start. I'm not liking it. Even if I can get 15 cities by T150. Many of them are either size 1 or 2 and need a granary. Or they're captured and coming out of revolt (and probably need a granary). Or they're awaiting border pops so they can access their food tiles, etc. Very few have a nicely prepped whippable for putting overflow into Oracle. And there's no relief in sight for those borders. This is where the Inca Terrace really shows itself as the best UB in the game. Possibly more powerful that its infamous UU.

    I thought maybe CRE trait was going to be the answer, so I tried Pericles, but he starts with Hunting. It's so hard to get those critical first 2 workers and pop important techs.

    Maybe I just have to play the Inca :(
     
  14. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2012
    Messages:
    4,057
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Fife, Scotland
    What about Louis? Industrious for Wonder Bread, Creative for border pops and you start with a couple of good worker techs.

    Having said that going for an incredible score like this it seems using the best Civ in the game is not a bad idea!
     
  15. cseanny

    cseanny Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Messages:
    1,124
    @WastinTime

    How many hours will have been put into the game by the time the GE is needed? Perhaps it's time to reconsider the need for 100% GE generation. Surely this would open up some other Leaders, Wonders, and perhaps even desired tech path.

    You'd have to be willing to forfeit several months of work though. On the bright side, if you didn't get the GE you'd be learning new streamlines, cutting corners, and other game nuances for the next re-roll o_^.

    Anyways, just a thought.
     
  16. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    15,138
    Gender:
    Male
    You are wise. As my thoughts turned back to possibly using Inca today, I was trying to imagine how I can make non-PHI work, cus it seems to me that either (a) PHI is required and I find a way to live with Sule or Pericles, or (b) play Inca.

    I could get a 100% GE 1st or 2nd, but this game I need to start my GP farms so early (like T200 or so) that it might not be possible to do the GE 1st and get another birth to start the GAge. I'd have to get Music to start the GAge and I don't think I can get it fast enough. Especially since I'll probably want/need Banking (Merc) to make up for the lack of PHI trait.

    Get a late one?
    I don't think I can get one, even at low odds, after the Biology GS because I'll need to be in slavery to spread sushi for the next 200 turns.

    And about the only other way to play non-PHI is like you said. Gamble the game on <100% GE.
    I don't want to run 1 GE in all my GP farms and try 10 times to get a low-odds GE, cus then I might end up with a late GE that I can't use, and I won't get Biology.
    I think you were suggesting something like that, cseanny. If I'm going to gamble, I'd like it to happen early and then have no risk that the GS's fail. I want 100% on the GS's.

    Option 1:
    I could try twice: at 300 gpp and 600 gpp. One of those will start the Golden Age, so even if I get 2 GE's I'm fine.
    In this case, I can get both births before T200 because I can run 2 sci + 1 eng + mids and/or HangingG. That's faster than waiting for a pure GE.
    Note to self: now I don't need to put Mids and HangingG (or Hagia) all in the same city, but probably should.
    I might have to throw in a temple to get to 600 with 1 priest added. Bringing odds below 50%.
    It's still not easy to get 600 gpp before T200. That's 12 gpp/t for 50 turns. Hard to set that all up by T150.

    Option 2:
    Instead of two shots at 50% or less, make one attempt at higher odds to get a GE at 600gpp (after the GAge starts)
    So now get one random GP at 300 before say T190 to start the GAge later.
    meanwhile, the GE city is building up gpp at 100% pure GE and continues to have about ~400gpp headstart when the GAage starts. Now, it might have to run a scientist or two to make sure it hits 600 before the major GP farms. But it might be 90% GE.

    That's probably what I'll do. Option 2. Both mids and HG in the same city. Only 1 forge needed. (side note: 1 other forge for Colossus)
     
  17. Mitchum

    Mitchum Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 31, 2006
    Messages:
    11,743
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    I think it's going to be a challenge to match Inca in terms of getting the snowball rolling earlier and faster. With a Quechua rush, you get more capitals (which in general have more resources than a normal city spot) and more well-developed second cities. True, they may not be in ideal locations or packed as tightly as you want, but you can always fill in the gaps later in the game like you did in your BC space game. It may not be perfect city spacing but it won't be horrible.

    As you said, since every city builds a granary first, it's almost like getting the CRE trait for free. In other words, Inca get three traits (or 2.5 traits) instead of two. It's hard to beat that...

    +1 for HC
     
  18. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2012
    Messages:
    4,057
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Fife, Scotland
    Four if you count the fact that they also have a mini Aggressive Trait, since the Quechua starts with Combat I!!

    No wonder they are banned in EQM etc!!
     
  19. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    15,138
    Gender:
    Male
    This test game was a super-fast espionage game. New record of 950 BC 'culture' win. Seemed like a good way to test Sule.
    I found myself just doing an axe rush and not really using IMP much (this game or my 2nd test game)
    I think IMP is dead to me.

    While I'm at it, I'm going to cut PHI too. I just need 10 GP in the time span of 2 Golden Ages.
    That's 49 turns (with Taj) minus 5 turns for a slavery/regrow window in the middle somewhere = 44 turns of caste to get to 3000gpp.

    So my GPfarms need to run 6+ scientists (2 food, size 8 or 9). I'll want Merc/banking, but I won't need it to have it before I start the GAges. Same with Parthenon. Calendar/MoM is required to start. Paya/Pacifism too.
     
  20. fjordan

    fjordan Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2007
    Messages:
    161
    Back to the Inca it seems. Now that the new Buffy is out can we look forward to a start for real? Don't let the "Real Life" monster eat you too, it already has made so many victims :ninja:.
     

Share This Page