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High War Score Means Unending War

Discussion in 'CivBE - General Discussions' started by bcaiko, Oct 12, 2015.

  1. bcaiko

    bcaiko Emperor

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    Hey folks -

    I see some threads have brought this up, but I think it deserves a topic all its own.

    As several folks seem to have noticed, if you're doing well and overrunning the AI, the warscore will begin to demand things that the AI will not be willing to accept (multiple cities, ect.). As far as I know, there's no way to negotiate. Instead, you get unending war. Forever annoyed by your insane neighbor unless you (A) lose battles on purpose, or (B) wipe them off the map.

    I once got Elodie to accept a white peace because I took her down to one city and no military units. Three turns later, she had built two military units and turned around to declare war on me again! :crazyeye: I had to remove her from the game just to make her stop.

    While I like a lot of the improvements BERT has brought to the game, the mandatory demands of the warscore - and the AI's ability to turn down peace offers ad infinitum - has borked up the game to be neigh unplayable for me.

    Have we heard any word on patches on this front? I'm surprised a problem this glaring made it past beta.
     
  2. Azem.Ocram

    Azem.Ocram King

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    I am not sure how it happened but Rejinaldo only eliminated 1 civilization (Kavithan Protectorate) while Elodie of all people eliminated Al Falah (she must have gone down Might virtues first) and Hutama conquered the People's African Union (Barre was still in the game when I won and for the 20 turns afterwards to research all techs but I am not sure if they were still at war).
     
  3. rhaak

    rhaak Chieftain

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  4. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    That thread was closed. Thing is, war score was junk-implemented. The whole purpose of a war score system is to serve as a negotiating check to *force peace deals based on what happens in the war*. It allows a victorious nation to gain terms even if the opponent is stubbornly refusing deals against sanity.

    EU IV implements it in a so-so fashion (that the AI can now refuse demands that would stabhit the player is a major step back) but despite the shortcomings there it's miles ahead of how it's working in BERT.

    The way it should work in BERT, is to serve as a min cap for demands the AI (and humans). Negotiations beyond that min cap should be possible, but the winning side should be able to *force* min demands. The inability of the winning side to leave value on the table to get out of the war (for any number of potentially valid reasons, such as another war/not having health to take cities/cities taken aren't defensible etc) is inane and an active detriment to the game's strategy.

    It's beyond disappointing that the game was released in a state where the player literally can't end a war they're *dominating* in some cases. That's a non-functional mechanic, straight up, and it's impacting a system (peace deals) that occur in an overwhelming majority of games.

    How did it get past testing? It didn't get past testing. That leaves some unfortunate implications.

    I'll pick up the expansion when it works, maybe on sale :p.
     
  5. omniclast

    omniclast Prince

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    Yeah, war score is definitely borked. Will Miller said in a reddit thread that they are aware of the problem and are working on a fix. Not sure if that means a week or 6 months though.
     
  6. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    Playing as Daoming. I am #1 in score. Barre is #2, about 300 points behind me. I DoW Barre and quickly took his city. Then, I tried to take his capital but did not bring enough artillery so I had to back off. I then attacked his capital again. His capital was doomed. Barre asks me for a white peace. The war score about 300 to 100 in my favor. I say no. I take his capital and immediately ask Barre for peace. Having taken his capital, the war score is now like lopsided big time in my favor and the terms are that Barre must surrender 2 cities to me. I assumed the AI would refuse, given the issues with the war score. But the AI accepted. After the AI accepted, the war score reset to 0-0. When I exited the diplo screen, I had received the 2 cities and was prompted whether to annex or not. The war score worked!!

    I hope this link works. Here is my save game. DaomingGame1
     
  7. ShaggyCan

    ShaggyCan Warlord

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    So what you are saying is that in the grim darkness of the future there is only war?
     
  8. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    No, the AI accepted my peace offer and gave me two cities!!
     
  9. AriochIV

    AriochIV Colonial Ninja

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    But if he had refused, you would still be at war with no way to end it, because this bizarre system forces you to demand cities, etc.
     
  10. Leathaface

    Leathaface Emperor

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    War score is annoying alright ATM. I could have over 2000 war score and the AI would have barely any or none at all, the game would demand I take the 2 only remaining cities from the AI.
     
  11. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    Obviously, if the AI had refused peace, I would still be at war. But I thought one big problem that players have with the war score is that the AI would never accept lopsided war scores. That is clearly not the case. The AI does accept big war score peace terms, even surrendering 2 cities. Being able to change peace terms is a different issue. Obviously, that is still a problem. But at least the first problem of the AI always rejecting peace terms is not an issue.
     
  12. Furycrab

    Furycrab King

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    Personally I love the idea behind the system, and I don't quite hate the state it came out because I don't have my rose colored glasses on where in the old system you could get stuck in a war where the AI couldn't break you, or where you had bloodied them quite a bit, but still couldn't get a reasonable peace offer.

    I also haven't seen any crazy diplo hit or start losing all my cooperating allies for wiping an AI off the board, so I guess in that respect I don't mind as much being stuck in a war.

    But this though...



    I know they often use CFC people and players to test out the stuff. How did the Progenitor wonders not raise a flag? How did internal trade route spam not get noticed (it works with everyone, just Hutama does it faster)? You would also only need to play one game to notice the AI is passive because on standard settings everyone can make 8 cities and still have room <.<.

    What happened? Did the final build come too late and the changes too ambitious?
     
  13. Alkaid

    Alkaid Warlord

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    My issue with the war score is it obviously sucks when it doesn't work properly and forces war to continue with stubborn AI, but I also don't even like it when it does work properly.

    I don't care about the "game the system" arguments I've seen to defend it, since the way it works now is just an annoyance most of the time unless you get lucky and the AI cooperates how you wanted it to. Sometimes I want to just take 1 or 2 cities. If I succeed, I don't want to either be forced to take more cities that I don't want or stuck in a war I can't end. Neither option is really detrimental to me either, just annoying. If I was already to take the 2 cities I wanted, I can likely defend myself from whatever the ongoing war brings. If I get stuck taking, say, 2 extra cities I didn't want, it doesn't negatively impact my progress, it just means I have 2 likely crappy cities to annoyingly manage or burn down.

    The old Base BE/Civ V system was by no means perfect either, but it was more desirable than this.

    I don't even feel like warmongering much anymore since it's just a pain in the ass to deal with wars I can't end or get spoils I don't want to be bothered with.

    And I don't think people are saying the AI never accepts peace anymore (not since the the LP previews anyway), it's just they often don't. They still deal with penalties and peace out sometimes, but it's much less often than it should be.
     
  14. Red Menace

    Red Menace Prepare to be Menaced

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    stop asking questions.
    yes, in the grim darkness of the war-score system there is only war.

    slightly more off topic: Warhammer 40K is the best, Imperial Guard all the way.
     
  15. Miravlix

    Miravlix King

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    Get them down to one city and they will gladly peace out.

    If you don't have the stomach for doing the work, don't start wars and expect to get it all handed through diplomacy.
     
  16. kaltorak

    kaltorak Emperor

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    I can't even believe it's working as intended. Looks totally like a bug. I take all his cities but 1, then try to make peace (I even really mean it, don't plan on taking his last city), but because of this warscore "bug" I can't offer peace without demanding his last city, which he obviously won't give.
     
  17. Alkaid

    Alkaid Warlord

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    I have the same issue right now, even without the "bug" showing. Even when it doesn't seem to bug and put their last city on the peace table they still usually won't peace out.

    Spoiler :


    Spoiler :
     
  18. Verviedi

    Verviedi Chieftain

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    Adeptus Mechanicus and Tau player here!
    It's odd that Supremacy is basically Necrons, and S/P is basically Tau.
     
  19. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    It's been many years since I've had involvement on that end of things, and if I still had involvement I'd be NDA blocked from giving the answer. But the obvious conclusion is that if decent players have touched the game during its testing/QA phase, they encountered scenarios such as war score not functioning in any adequate capacity and mentioned such. Yet these issues still persist in the release version.

    The reason is probably the same reason every-game UI lies/bugs identified and logged during EU IV open-beta made it right into their patch release. Deadlines trump quality, and feature creep trumps planning a polished game for the deadline.

    Given the alternative of a short-release cycle, it would have been possible to...you know...not introduce "war score" at all until it works. Given the game's new rules, water cities, hybrid affinities, you have the makings of a workable expansion already. But rather than polish, they chose to sell what is effectively a beta as a retail product, a disturbing trend in gaming and one that comes off as dishonest (take an obvious contrast like minecraft, which sold games in its beta and even alpha states, but was honest about it).

    These things are essentially project management mistakes coupled with variable degrees of dishonest practice. Somehow, the gaming industry's standards have lowered enough in some genres where this behavior is tolerated. Maybe there just isn't enough competition. Major expansion features not working on release would get you smoked in some genres.
     
  20. Red Menace

    Red Menace Prepare to be Menaced

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    stop asking questions.
    yes it is, Necron=Supremacy, Space Marines=P/H. but in Dawn of War my favorite is Imperial Guard just too awesome, cant stop the horde.

    On Topic: has anyone had an AI give you their last city? if its even possible, I would like to know what happens.
    maybe it turns into eternal AI, in civ V if you sell a city to an AI they start raising it and during that process they lose their last city they just become a leader with nothing.
     

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