Hindus STILL dumping on human rights - literally

[Erik Mesoy]

As of 2007, the sanitation system in India involves, depending on who you listen to, between 400 000 and 800 000 dalits - also called untouchables, or outcastes - manually carrying human excreta.

Of all the memetoviruses in the world, Hinduism is one of the oldest, and possibly the least receptive to civilising influences. It contains both "super-deities" more transcendent and impervious to the light of reason than any monotheist uberbeing seen in the West, and millions of small deities for every man who wants his personal desire made into an icon he can worship. It is no surprise that this wicked ideology should have such an untouchable - pardon the pun - system of oppression built into its roots. After all, society is much easier to organise if there are some who are born noble and can be groomed to rulership from an early age, and some whose lot in life it to haul crap.

Undoubtedly there exist a few civilised Hindus, such as Mohandas Gandhi. But what did Gandhi say on the matter of religion?

"I am a Christian, a Hindu, a Muslim, and a Jew."

No remark should be necessary on what happens to people who are born Hindu and then awaken from their dogmatic slumber, but I will note for the sake of the historians that Gandhi was assassinated by a Hindu.

http://www.ibnlive.com/videos/45391/manual-scavengers-victims-of-caste-pyramid.html

"Not one of these manual scavengers across [incomprehensible] Delhi want to do what they do. But lack of opportunity and caste discrimination have condemned them to this degrading practice."

So all the declarations, all the apologia, all the cries of "Don't blame the Hinduism of today! We've reformed! We even passed laws about it!" are null and void. They were never true for a minute. This meme-complex finds victims dumb enough to be receptive to the old and pernicious idea of standing by accident of birth, and those people are oppressing as though the Enlightenment had been and gone.

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/caste/presskit.htm

Over 100,000 cases of rape, murder, arson, and other atrocities against Dalits are reported in India each year. Given that Dalits are both reluctant and unable (for lack of police cooperation) to report crimes against themselves, the actual number of abuses is presumably much higher.

India's own agencies have reported that these cases are typically related to attempts by Dalits to defy the social order, or demand minimum wages and their basic human rights. Many of the atrocities are committed by the police. Even perpetrators of large-scale massacres have escaped prosecution.

http://dalit.members.winisp.net/CasteSystem/Castebaseddiscrimination/tabid/64/Default.aspx

Today, even as we march into the 21st century as a nuclear power, there are around 400,000 to 800,000 Dalits having to manually carry human excreta as part of the sanitation arrangements in various places, including our nation’s capitol. This is caste determined occupational heritage given by Hindu social order to untouchables. They earn a mere one dollar a month. Rehabilitating less than a million manual scavengers in a population of a thousand million is no gigantic task, especially, when the programme can be concentrated on just four states where 70% of the manual scavengers live. A law passed in 1993 banned human scavenging in the country; the government has spent 60 millions rupees on implementing the law. However, more than 787000 people are still engaged as human scavengers across the country (Infochangeindia, 2005).

Following Hindu religious traditions in certain parts of India, it is not uncommon for a 6 year old female Untouchable child is forced to marry a temple god. Her parents who are mostly landless laborer, and at puberty she is raped as temple goddess by the higher castes. Every year 5000-10,000 of these children are secretly auctioned to the brothels of Bombay and other major cities (Muman, 2002). This system is known as Devdasi or Maidens of God. Other sanctified female child prostitution is called Jogins where a child at puberty is forced to stay with her parents as a bonded labor and the Hindu masters visit her at her house for their own sexual pleasures. Moreover, the evidence shows that the vast majority of bonded laborers in India come from Dalits and Adivasi communities. The existence of national law against the prostitution does not provide any special provisions to protect the Dalit victim of such practices

http://www.indiatogether.org/combatlaw/issue4/hinduorder.htm

Spoiler Wall of Text (tm) on the conflict of the caste system with human rights :

We will discuss how the Hindu social order (particularly its main pillar, the caste system and untouchability) in its classical form comes in direct conflict with the universal human rights framework. And how the continuation of the practice of caste system and untouchability in modified forms leads to the ubiquitous violations of human rights, particularly of the dalits. Despite the legal provisions, since the caste system and the institution of untouchability continue to govern the social behaviour of high caste Hindus it makes the enforcement of human rights difficult, if not impossible.[/quote]

The Hindu social order, particularly its main pillars: the caste system and untouchability, presents a unique case. As a system of social, economic and religious governance it is founded not on the principle of liberty (or freedom), equality and fraternity - the values which formed the basis of universal human rights - but on the principle of inequality in every sphere of life. In Ambedkar's view, the doctrine of inequality is the core and heart of the Hindu social order. It leaves no difference between legal philosophy (and law) and moral philosophy (morality). (Ambedkar 1987 first published, Deepak Lal, 1988). The three unique features of the caste system need to be understood.

In the social sphere the caste system involves (a) division of people in social groups (castes). The social, religious, cultural and economic rights of members of the castes are predetermined in advance by birth into that caste and are hereditary (b) an unequal distribution of these rights across caste groups (c) provision of a mechanism of social and economic ostracism calculated to ensure rigid adherence to the system and justification of the social system by the philosophy of Hinduism. In the sphere of economic rights, the Hindu social order also lays down a scheme of distribution, namely (a) it fixes the occupations for each caste by birth and its hereditary continuation; (b) unequal distribution of these economic rights related to property, trade, employment, wages, education etc., among the caste groups; and (c) hierarchy of occupation based on social stigma.

These features imply that the Hindu social order is based on three interrelated elements, namely predetermination of social, religious and economic rights of each caste based on birth; the unequal and hierarchical (graded) division of these rights among the castes; and provision of strong social, religious and economic ostracism supported by social and religious ideology to maintain the Hindu social order.

In this framework the concept of "human rights" under the Hindu social system takes on a specific meaning. Unlike other human societies, the Hindu social order in its classical form does not recognize the individual and his distinctiveness as the center of the social purpose. The unit of the Hindu society is not the individual. Even the family is not regarded as a unit of society except for the purposes of marriages and inheritance (Ambedkar 1987, first published). The primary unit of society is caste. There is no room for individual merit and the consideration of individual justice. Rights that an individual has are not due to him personally; it is due to him because he belongs to a particular caste. Similarly, if an individual suffers from a lack of rights, it is not because he deserves it by his conduct. The disability is imposed upon the caste and as a member of the caste that is his lot.

Among the regional studies considered earlier, the studies from Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka also provide evidence of economic discrimination in occupation, employment, wages and loans, and other economic spheres. The study from Andhra Pradesh (Venkateswarlu 1990) indicates that when untouchables wanted to switch over from their traditional occupation in the rural area to some other occupation, they were abused or beaten.

To start the discussion off - what should be done about Hinduism? Reform? Work against? Sanction?

 

[CCA]

This is trully a sad tragedy, The Memento virus of Hinduism, unfortunately has no cure.

The only cure against this affliction will be a complete, total war of all out thought reform process, only the Communist Party will be brave enough to attempt such a thing though.

 

[Fifty]

To start the discussion off - what should be done about Hinduism? Reform? Work against? Sanction?

I don't know. The problem with the Hindu memetovirus is that, outside of that closed society, it lies just far enough beneath the surface for us westerners not to take action against such atrocities. It's kinda like a memetopapillomavirus in that regard.

So the question becomes, how as westerners can we figure out a way to vacinate newborn Indians against this memetovirus. The phenotypic effects seem to be mainly propogated by the rich, literate class of India, so we can't expect any help from them. One would hope that the intellectual class of a nation would be first to help irradicate its disgusting injustices, but the caste system effectively insulates India from that form of anti-memetoviral vaccine. The intellectual class is supposed to be the immune system against memetoviral infection, so I fear this may be like a memetomanifestation of AIDS. It's very scary. We (non-infected countries) need to fund more memetovirologists at memetomed schools to combat this illness.

 

[CCA]

I don't know. The problem with the Hindu memetovirus is that, outside of that closed society, it lies just far enough beneath the surface for us westerners not to take action against such atrocities. It's kinda like a memetopapillomavirus in that regard.

So the question becomes, how as westerners can we figure out a way to vacinate newborn Indians against this memetovirus. The phenotypic effects seem to be mainly propogated by the rich, literate class of India, so we can't expect any help from them. One would hope that the intellectual class of a nation would be first to help irradicate its disgusting injustices, but the caste system effectively insulates India from that form of anti-memetoviral vaccine. The intellectual class is supposed to be the immune system against memetoviral infection, so I fear this may be like a memetomanifestation of AIDS. It's very scary. We (non-infected countries) need to fund more memetovirologists at memetomed schools to combat this illness.

That's certainly a valid point but what PRACTICAL steps would need to be taken to combat this memento virus?

Perhaps Islam could be used as a lesser evil to counteract the effects of this delirium?

 

[Fifty]

Perhaps Islam could be used as a lesser evil to counteract the effects of this delirium?

I have a problem with this view. While we both agree that Islam is the lesser evil here, I think that's more of a bandaid then a treatment. If caste-based atrocities are really a memetopapillomavirus, we have to be treating the virus, not the warts that it causes. We may bandage the memetowarts with subsidies to low caste people, or try to violently freeze them off by supporting Islam, but the memetopapillomavirus will always be lurking beneath the surface. We need a vaccine against Hinduism.

 

[LesCanadiens]

I have a problem with this view. While we both agree that Islam is the lesser evil here, I think that's more of a bandaid then a treatment. If caste-based atrocities are really a memetopapillomavirus, we have to be treating the virus, not the warts that it causes. We may bandage the memetowarts with subsidies to low caste people, or try to violently freeze them off by supporting Islam, but the memetopapillomavirus will always be lurking beneath the surface. We need a vaccine against Hinduism.

You can't cure Hinduism. It just can't be done. Although I agree with you that Islam is just a band-aid solution, at present it's all we have. Forgive me for being such a cynic, but I have seen countless people over the years work to merely apply the Islamic band aid to the Hindu memetopapillomavirus, and still only effectively treat tiny fractions of the total victims, so any talk of developing a vaccine to me is a bit like aiming for the stars before you've set foot on the moon.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

OBTW. I freely acknowledge that I was inspired by aneeshm in posting this, and he should get most of the credit for this sort of major-problem-highlighting thread. I just figured it would be fair to have some focus on all the major religions of the world.

(Personally, I think atheism doesn't count. Bald is not a hair color. But feel free, if you're reading this, to highlight atheist atrocities. Personally, I don't think you'll find very many.)

The phenotypic effects seem to be mainly propogated by the rich, literate class of India, so we can't expect any help from them. One would hope that the intellectual class of a nation would be first to help irradicate its disgusting injustices, but the caste system effectively insulates India from that form of anti-memetoviral vaccine. The intellectual class is supposed to be the immune system against memetoviral infection, so I fear this may be like a memetomanifestation of AIDS.

Interesting point. What would happen if we encouraged the rise of a middle class in India, do you think?

My personal opinion to the question I posed at the end of the first post - I think the best thing to do is not necessarily vaccination against Hinduism, but rather co-opting and reforming it, as removing a faith held by roughly a billion people, most of whom are in tight geographical proximity, will be impractically difficult.

 

[Evie]

(Personally, I think atheism doesn't count. Bald is not a hair color. But feel free, if you're reading this, to highlight atheist atrocities. Personally, I don't think you'll find very many.)

*Patiently waits for the obligatory Communazi=Atheist reference.*

 

[Jawz II]

Oooo Aneeshm is really gonna love this thread!

Carrying human excrement? 1 dollar a month? what the hell?

Why don't they all convert to another religion and move to another country? I would. Where is their life gonna suck even more than that?

I hear the (american) marine corps recruit people of all nationalities and if you do the service for however many years it takes, they give you a green card after that. Surely being hit by IEDs in baghdad is much better than carrying crap?

There are very few jobs in very few places I can think of that are worse than this situation..

 

[Erik Mesoy]

Carrying human excrement? 1 dollar a month? what the hell?

Why don't they all convert to another religion and move to another country? I would. Where is their life gonna suck even more than that?

Well, read the OP a little more, or peek at the links for details. In short, they don't have the money or the chance or the independence or the time, and they get attacked for trying.

"Not one of these manual scavengers across [incomprehensible] Delhi want to do what they do. But lack of opportunity and caste discrimination have condemned them to this degrading practice."

"Over 100,000 cases of rape, murder, arson, and other atrocities against Dalits are reported in India each year. [snip] India's own agencies have reported that these cases are typically related to attempts by Dalits to defy the social order, or demand minimum wages and their basic human rights."

"indicates that when untouchables wanted to switch over from their traditional occupation in the rural area to some other occupation, they were abused or beaten."

 

[Bill3000]

I think this explains perfectly why India still has the plague.

 

[emzie]

One of the most striking pictures I ever saw from India was a dead infant in front of a gate to a palace.

Glad to see little has changed.

 

[Virote_Considon]

I think this explains perfectly why India still has the plague.

No $hit, Sherlock

 

[Communisto]

No $hit, Sherlock

I bet those hindus wished they had no shit... to carry....


I fail.

 

[Jawz II]

Well, read the OP a little more, or peek at the links for details. In short, they don't have the money or the chance or the independence or the time, and they get attacked for trying.

Actually I did. I once came across another forum where an indian nationalist (a lot of those around now) was having a flame war with someone who was claming to be an ex hindu dalit (converted christian). The indian guy kept insisting that the other guy was a pakistani.

It was all kinda funny, in a sad way.

Apparently many dalits do convert, mostly to Buddhism.

Yea I know they cant afford the plane ticket to america to join the marine corps, but Im sure the americans wouldnt mind paying for it.

Theyve outsourced everything that can be outsourced (and the jobs that cant be, they have imported mexicans for), why not THE most dangerous and crappy job there is (fighting a war)? I think Im on to something here...

Seriously. They already have thousands of Indian employees working for KBR and haliburton in Iraq (Ironically doing the crappiest jobs, cleaning and emptying those porta potties for example), this is just taking it one step further. Its better pay and if they survive a green card at the end of the tunnel!

Cynical genius I am...

Spoiler :

Maybe not.

 

[sysyphus]

This whole religion bashing thing is seriously getting out of control, even if it is only to prove a point.

 

[Bill3000]

This whole religion bashing thing is seriously getting out of control, even if it is only to prove a point.

Any religion in which women immolate themselves, like the hinduism memetovirus, is hardly merely proving a point.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

This whole religion bashing thing is seriously getting out of control, even if it is only to prove a point.

Think of it like the "Ask a..." threads. I expect one more, and then it'll subside for a long while, possibly with one of the threads diverted somewhat and persisting.

Anyway. Can we please stop spamming "memeto-" at everything?

 

[Riffraff]

This all wouldn't have happened if political correctness hadnt prevented people from naming the real root of the problems - muslims

 

[sysyphus]

Bigotry is the real root of the problems.