Hindus STILL dumping on human rights - literally

[Eran of Arcadia]

This all wouldn't have happened if political correctness hadnt prevented people from naming the real root of the problems - muslims

And the British, can't forget the British.

 

[Rambuchan]

I have a solution:

Load up those planes, the ones Americans use to spray cocaine crops in South America, with the appropriate insecticide and carpet bomb the mothers!!! Let's show them what dumping is really about.

 

[Japanrocks12]

I truly hope with all my heart that you're kidding. We know that aneeshm's islam-bashing is infuriating, but that doesn't give you the right to do the same, if only in a troll.

 

[DBear]

Wow, another religion besides Christianity gets bashed! I must be at the wrong forum! [/sarc]

 

[Tee Kay]

Caste system and discrimination still exist everywhere. It's just it's less than in the past.

The plight of India's untouchable is really sad, but that doesn't justify bashing Hinduism.

 

[puglover]

Hindus need a reformer. There have been a number of brave men and women who have stood up to the status quo in other religions (Martin Luther, to give a Christian example.) But I think Hinduism's age is playing against it. If someone can find a way to fight this evil tradition of mistreating the lower castes from inside the religion, I think there might be a better future for India.

 

[Bill3000]

Wow, another religion besides Christianity gets bashed! I must be at the wrong forum! [/sarc]

Don't worry, objectivism gets bashed too, so don't feel left out!

 

[Japanrocks12]

Hindus need a reformer. There have been a number of brave men and women who have stood up to the status quo in other religions (Martin Luther, to give a Christian example.) But I think Hinduism's age is playing against it. If someone can find a way to fight this evil tradition of mistreating the lower castes from inside the religion, I think there might be a better future for India.

this, I can agree with. Gandhi was there, but he didn't go nearly far enough into the religion itself, but he only drew on it for social and political reform.

 

[mark_c]

This all wouldn't have happened if political correctness hadnt prevented people from naming the real root of the problems - muslims

Political correctness stops no such thing. You're free to say what you like, and plenty of people do name Islam as a problem (far more so than other religions). (And let's not forget that religious people misleadingly blame things on political correctness too - e.g., Christians going on about "the war on Christmas".)

 

[Babbler]

Hindus need a reformer. There have been a number of brave men and women who have stood up to the status quo in other religions (Martin Luther, to give a Christian example.) But I think Hinduism's age is playing against it. If someone can find a way to fight this evil tradition of mistreating the lower castes from inside the religion, I think there might be a better future for India.

Wasn't Buddah a Hindu reformer?

 

[innonimatu]

Not much hope for a reformer, when it appears that modern indian politicians gain popularity by organizing massacres of non-hindus. And, I'm sure, also of the wrong kind of hindus, should the lower castes step out of line.

AS A cheerleader for the emerging India, a giant democracy with—at last—an economy to match, Narendra Modi is a disgrace. His six-year leadership of Gujarat, a booming western state, is widely cited as a paragon of economic management. But double-digit growth is not all that Mr Modi—who is seeking re-election in a poll due to begin on December 11th—is alleged to have orchestrated.

There is also the small matter of 2,000 murdered Muslims, victims of a 2002 pogrom carried out by his Hindu-nationalist followers with the collusion of Gujarat's bureaucracy and police. This week the widow of a Muslim politician called Ahsan Jafri, whose limbs and genitals were hacked off and the rest of him burned alive, was due to file a petition in the Supreme Court, accusing Mr Modi of mass murder. There is little justice for Muslims in Gujarat. Only eight people have been convicted over the pogrom, mostly in neighbouring states. In Gujarat, some 2,000 cases remain pending.

A small matter, however, is just how the pogrom is viewed in Gujarat, the birth-place of Mahatma Gandhi, and a bastion of prohibition, vegetarianism and gnat-respecting Jains. Its last election, later in 2002, gave Mr Modi a thumping majority, biggest in those districts where the bloodshed was worst. Mr Modi's campaign that year exploited anti-Muslim sentiment. He foamed and raved against Pakistan's leader, Pervez Musharraf—meaning, his audiences knew, scheming Muslims in their midst. Many considered—and consider—the pogrom to be a legitimate act of revenge against a poor minority making up 9% of Gujarat's population. It was organised by supporters of Mr Modi's Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) after 58 Hindu activists were killed in a fire on a train for which, on scant evidence, Muslims were blamed.

I can't wait for our resident BJP supporter to join the discussion.

Hey, at least this is a variation form the "evil muslims" thread. Now we only need an evil christians thread, evil jews thread, evil atheists thread, evil buddhists thread and and evil taoists thread, to balance things. Shouldn't be hard!

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

This entire thread is a specific parody of another; I doubt Erik Mesoy really hates Hindus at all, but it is . . . reassuring to see how any ideology can have such a thread made about it.

 

[Japanrocks12]

This entire thread is a specific parody of another; I doubt Erik Mesoy really hates Hindus at all, but it is . . . reassuring to see how any ideology can have such a thread made about it.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=254450
indeed....

 

[Sims2789]

Bigotry is the real root of the problems.

And it's possible by creating artificial groups like race and caste.

 

[aneeshm]

Not much hope for a reformer, when it appears that modern indian politicians gain popularity by organizing massacres of non-hindus. And, I'm sure, also of the wrong kind of hindus, should the lower castes step out of line.



I can't wait for our resident BJP supporter to join the discussion.

Hey, at least this is a variation form the "evil muslims" thread. Now we only need an evil christians thread, evil jews thread, evil atheists thread, evil buddhists thread and and evil taoists thread, to balance things. Shouldn't be hard!

Here's what the Muslims of Gujarat - interviewed in a Mosque, on the street, and in a village - have to say about their lives.

 

[aneeshm]

The phenotypic effects seem to be mainly propogated by the rich, literate class of India, so we can't expect any help from them.

Actually, it's the opposite. We're facing a manpower shortage in many key industrial sectors, so the entire class of people who is rich thinks that casteism is very bad for business, and would be happy to get an infusion of skilled people capable of working into the labour market.

One would hope that the intellectual class of a nation would be first to help irradicate its disgusting injustices, but the caste system effectively insulates India from that form of anti-memetoviral vaccine. The intellectual class is supposed to be the immune system against memetoviral infection, so I fear this may be like a memetomanifestation of AIDS. It's very scary. We (non-infected countries) need to fund more memetovirologists at memetomed schools to combat this illness.

 

[aneeshm]

Interesting point. What would happen if we encouraged the rise of a middle class in India, do you think?

The middle class already exists, and it's huge - the vast majority in every urban centre.

My personal opinion to the question I posed at the end of the first post - I think the best thing to do is not necessarily vaccination against Hinduism, but rather co-opting and reforming it, as removing a faith held by roughly a billion people, most of whom are in tight geographical proximity, will be impractically difficult.

A common error.

Unlike the Authoritarian "religions" (Jud,Chr,Isl), the definition of what is today known as "Hinduism" changes over time. Go back two thousand years, and you'll find that the practices of that day had practically nothing in common with the faith-based practices of the people today.

You are assuming that, like other "religions", there is an entity called "Hinduism" which is based on an "authority" (equivalent to "God" in the JCL triad), 'handed down' to common people through the intermediaries of either "Holy Books" and "Prophets" (who are themselves 'Authorities'). This, however, is not the case. There is no one "book" or "dogma" which you have to accept if you are to be a "Hindu". That is, if I disagree with something, then there is no book, authority, or institution which can "excommunicate" me for that disagreement.

This is a common error of thought, because most people cannot "grok" what is so completely beyond their experience at first contact. It took me more than five years to make sense of it all, and even now, I've only got the structure and framework down.

So this is the important thing - if there is some passage in some book (now note that no book is an "authority", so don't treat it as a "Holy Book", they don't exist in your sense) saying something wrong, then I can say, "This is wrong and stupid", and it will not make me an "apostate worthy of death" or anything like that.

The reluctance the JCLs have in admitting outright that their book-authors screwed up does not infect us. For us, books are just that - books - which implies that they have an author, who is human and fallible.

If anyone is interested, I can elaborate upon the structuring of the tradition in greater detail - the domains of knowledge of the different classes of books, for instance.

 

[Fifty]

So the Hindu religion insulates itself from criticism by not having any actual official authority or dogma, but rather allows itself to morph meanings whenever criticized so that its adherents can pretend like their hands are clean of the huge and frankly disgusting injustices done in its name (they can claim that they practice a different form of Hinduism). What a great tactic for keeping a horrific class structure intact. The authoritarian powers behind other major religions could have much to learn from the Hindu ways...

Also aneesh, if the middle class is huge, and 50% of your country is illiterate, then does that mean that some of the middle class is illiterate? What a horrible education system...

 

[druidravi]

Of all the memetoviruses in the world, Hinduism is one of the oldest, and possibly the least receptive to civilising influences. It contains both "super-deities" more transcendent and impervious to the light of reason than any monotheist uberbeing seen in the West, and millions of small deities for every man who wants his personal desire made into an icon he can worship. It is no surprise that this wicked ideology should have such an untouchable - pardon the pun - system of oppression built into its roots.



Memetovirus . What does the amount of deities have to do with anything. There was a case recently where a child was born with 8 arms. The villages wanted to make a temple worshipping her as a deity but however the parents wisely decided to listen to doctor's opinion . The thing is one of core belief's of Hinduism is that there is no one right way to follow God and if you do good even without worshipping God you will go to heaven . This sort of makes all those millions of Gods phenomena . Important thing is even among all these millions of God's there is no clashes between their followers as there is no single right way .


After all, society is much easier to organise if there are some who are born noble and can be groomed to rulership from an early age, and some whose lot in life it to haul crap.

Well this bit is out-dated . There are no rulers in India . Monarchy is an outdated phenomenon and it is not a purely Hindu phenomenon at that.

Undoubtedly there exist a few civilised Hindus, such as Mohandas Gandhi. But what did Gandhi say on the matter of religion?No remark should be necessary on what happens to people who are born Hindu and then awaken from their dogmatic slumber, but I will note for the sake of the historians that Gandhi was assassinated by a Hindu.


Gandhi is one person the west is familiar with . In truth there are tons of reformers , media activists and judicial activism .




So all the declarations, all the apologia, all the cries of "Don't blame the Hinduism of today! We've reformed! We even passed laws about it!" are null and void. They were never true for a minute. This meme-complex finds victims dumb enough to be receptive to the old and pernicious idea of standing by accident of birth, and those people are oppressing as though the Enlightenment had been and gone.

"There were never true". Why?





We will discuss how the Hindu social order (particularly its main pillar, the caste system and untouchability) in its classical form comes in direct conflict with the universal human rights framework. And how the continuation of the practice of caste system and untouchability in modified forms leads to the ubiquitous violations of human rights, particularly of the dalits. Despite the legal provisions, since the caste system and the institution of untouchability continue to govern the social behaviour of high caste Hindus it makes the enforcement of human rights difficult, if not impossible.The Hindu social order, particularly its main pillars: the caste system and untouchability, presents a unique case. As a system of social, economic and religious governance it is founded not on the principle of liberty (or freedom), equality and fraternity - the values which formed the basis of universal human rights - but on the principle of inequality in every sphere of life. In Ambedkar's view, the doctrine of inequality is the core and heart of the Hindu social order. It leaves no difference between legal philosophy (and law) and moral philosophy (morality). (Ambedkar 1987 first published, Deepak Lal, 1988). The three unique features of the caste system need to be understood.

Well you have through your post stumbled upon another reformer Ambedkar .

In the social sphere the caste system involves (a) division of people in social groups (castes). The social, religious, cultural and economic rights of members of the castes are predetermined in advance by birth into that caste and are hereditary (b) an unequal distribution of these rights across caste groups (c) provision of a mechanism of social and economic ostracism calculated to ensure rigid adherence to the system and justification of the social system by the philosophy of Hinduism. In the sphere of economic rights, the Hindu social order also lays down a scheme of distribution, namely (a) it fixes the occupations for each caste by birth and its hereditary continuation; (b) unequal distribution of these economic rights related to property, trade, employment, wages, education etc., among the caste groups; and (c) hierarchy of occupation based on social stigma.

Occupation by caste has become an almost outdated with all the present flux of jobs .


These features imply that the Hindu social order is based on three interrelated elements, namely predetermination of social, religious and economic rights of each caste based on birth; the unequal and hierarchical (graded) division of these rights among the castes; and provision of strong social, religious and economic ostracism supported by social and religious ideology to maintain the Hindu social order.

There is no longer any economic right by birth . Let me tell you a bit about Hindu caste system . There were initially 4 castes priests ,warriors , traders and servants . There are very few people who stick to priesthood for lively hood these days . Most are educated and take part in job sectors like IT, Medical etc which have no connection to castes . Similarly anyone can open a business or join the army .


In this framework the concept of "human rights" under the Hindu social system takes on a specific meaning. Unlike other human societies, the Hindu social order in its classical form does not recognize the individual and his distinctiveness as the center of the social purpose. The unit of the Hindu society is not the individual. Even the family is not regarded as a unit of society except for the purposes of marriages and inheritance (Ambedkar 1987, first published). The primary unit of society is caste. There is no room for individual merit and the consideration of individual justice. Rights that an individual has are not due to him personally; it is due to him because he belongs to a particular caste. Similarly, if an individual suffers from a lack of rights, it is not because he deserves it by his conduct. The disability is imposed upon the caste and as a member of the caste that is his lot. [/i


India is not ruled by any relegious law . The judiciary is independent and has no connection with relegion .


I know the topic post was a mock post . Still there are widespread problems in the hindu society . Caste discrimination exists though there are no longer struck to the same old jobs. Untouchability exists still in some rural parts of India however we have the police , judiciary taking action whenever any case is brought to their attention .

Discrimination against dalits still exists though . The government has various reservations in almost all jobs, education institutes for them . Some have taken advantage of these schemes . However the vast majority of them are still in a bad situation due to centuries of oppression . Many of them have converted to Buddhism , Christianity and a few to Islam . Various dalit political parties have sprung up and have formed governments in various states .

 

[Erik Mesoy]

So the Hindu religion insulates itself from criticism by not having any actual official authority or dogma, but rather allows itself to morph meanings whenever criticized so that its adherents can pretend like their hands are clean of the huge and frankly disgusting injustices done in its name (they can claim that they practice a different form of Hinduism). What a great tactic for keeping a horrific class structure intact. The authoritarian powers behind other major religions could have much to learn from the Hindu ways...

^ What he said. ^

Also aneesh, if the middle class is huge, and 50% of your country is illiterate, then does that mean that some of the middle class is illiterate? What a horrible education system...

I think we're stretching the definition of "middle class" if it includes illiterates. Or else the education system is unspeakably horrible. Not that this would surprise me in such a country.

The middle class already exists, and it's huge - the vast majority in every urban centre.

I can only conclude that the middle class is participating in the ongoing oppression then.

A common error.

Unlike the Authoritarian "religions" (Jud,Chr,Isl), the definition of what is today known as "Hinduism" changes over time. Go back two thousand years, and you'll find that the practices of that day had practically nothing in common with the faith-based practices of the people today.

So Hinduism came up with the caste system since then? That's not only barbaric, that's outright regressive!

You are assuming that, like other "religions", there is an entity called "Hinduism" which is based on an "authority" (equivalent to "God" in the JCL triad), 'handed down' to common people through the intermediaries of either "Holy Books" and "Prophets" (who are themselves 'Authorities'). This, however, is not the case. There is no one "book" or "dogma" which you have to accept if you are to be a "Hindu". That is, if I disagree with something, then there is no book, authority, or institution which can "excommunicate" me for that disagreement.

Sounds little different from atheism, then.

I congratulate you, by the way, on completely and utterly dodging the difficult questions of the first post with a segue into the history of Hinduism, followed by an extended monologue on how Hinduism is a non-ideology.

The only thing you did say about caste system was this:

We're facing a manpower shortage in many key industrial sectors, so the entire class of people who is rich thinks that casteism is very bad for business, and would be happy to get an infusion of skilled people capable of working into the labour market.

[sarcasm] Yeeeeeah, riiiiiight. Very enlightening. I'm sure the dalits must be keeping themselves downtrodden, since obviously the authorities would like nothing better than for them to become uplifted. [/sarcasm]

(lots of crap about how Hinduism actually has no requirements)

Sweet, I can be a Hindu too now?

Seriously, though, what this apparently boils down to is that Hinduism sees nothing wrong about violating fundamental human rights and dignity, because Hinduism has no rules with any permanence.



Also, intellectual masturbation and full-on relativism. Impressive.

I say now to SEND IN THE MISSIONARIES and get rid of Hinduism before it merges with New Age pop philosophy and creates an unspeakable monster that is utterly immune to criticism due to its "anyone can disagree, and nobody cares" attitude. There's already quite enough bad pseudoscience, spirituality and mysticism spreading into the Lands of the Enlightenment (a pompous title, but one that gets the point across - the West developed science, India developed the caste system and a disrespect for rigor).