PrincepsAmerica
Nothingness made flesh
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article2448854.ece
I gotta hear what Aneeshm thinks about this one.
I gotta hear what Aneeshm thinks about this one.
Hindus up in arms as god clashes with government
- Thread starter PrincepsAmerica
- Start date
You can't have the words "hindu" "gods" and "arms" in a title without a picture of KALI!
PS: Please quote the parts of the story you want discussed
PS: Please quote the parts of the story you want discussed
TheDervish
Scion of the Achaemenids
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2005
- Messages
- 665
I believe the formation should be preserved, rather than challenge the validity of it. Any religion can be challenged by modern philosophy or science. Judeo-Christians may believe our earth is only 5-6k years young, but scientists will argue otherwise. I don't believe science should impose upon religion, or the other way around. However, I believe we should still preserve religious sites and natural habitats. I know I'll be outspoken in this regard, but I consider any deliberate tampering of the formation to be on par with the Taliban shelling of the Afghani Buddhas.
PrincepsAmerica
Nothingness made flesh
There was nothing specific about it, more the entire article. It seems kind of like the Hindu equivalent of biblical "common sense" readers who interpret the books literally as opposed to figuratively. But then I don't really know the "average" beliefs of Hindus so I invoked the name of aneesh.
warpus
In pork I trust
The question here, I think, is how important those rocks are to Hinduism.
Is this just an isolated group of fundamentalists.. or do these rocks have some special meaning to Hindus as a whole?
Is this just an isolated group of fundamentalists.. or do these rocks have some special meaning to Hindus as a whole?
Shaihulud
Deity
That is the important question, but i think at heart the research may have antagonized the religious. There is little chance that a scientific research in matters of religion would prove useful, which the local authorities should know.
warpus
In pork I trust
Which research? Don't they just want to get rid of the rocks to make room for a shipping lane?
PrincepsAmerica
Nothingness made flesh
I agree they should be protected, and I agree with the way the Arizona deal was handled too.
Interesting that here scientists say something is only a few thousand years old and the religious believers say it is millions . . .
People do get upset when their fairy tales are questioned, don't they.
OTOH, whether beliefs are true or not, I can see it being problematic to build through something like that. An analogy might be cutting down Sherwood Forest here in England - even though we all know Robin Hood is just a legend, people might not want to destroy something that is part of our history and culture. I think that's the issue - one of culture, not belief. And as with anything, it's a question of whether that outweights the economical benefits of building this.
OTOH, whether beliefs are true or not, I can see it being problematic to build through something like that. An analogy might be cutting down Sherwood Forest here in England - even though we all know Robin Hood is just a legend, people might not want to destroy something that is part of our history and culture. I think that's the issue - one of culture, not belief. And as with anything, it's a question of whether that outweights the economical benefits of building this.
Young Earth Scientists (YES)!!!
My personal vote is to leave it be. Otherwise, why did the world get all uppity about the Taliban blowing up those big buddhas in Afghanistan back in 99 or 2000 or so?
Evie
Pronounced like Eevee
Because people had actually toiled and sweated to create the Bamiyah Buddhas.
Whereas there is no scientifical evidence for these being anything other than natural formations.
Now, you can make a case that the formation is sacred to the hindu, and should be protected. It's certainly a defensible case.
Whereas there is no scientifical evidence for these being anything other than natural formations.
Now, you can make a case that the formation is sacred to the hindu, and should be protected. It's certainly a defensible case.
Japanrocks12
tired of being a man
this is incredibly silly. It's an epic, it's fiction. parts or whole of it have been fictionalized. It might be an allegory, but first and foremost it is a STORY.
warpus
In pork I trust
Try telling that to some Christians about the Bible or to some Muslims about the Koran.. I guess that happens, even on these boards..
but yeah, you're not going to convince anyone like that.
Things are apparently much different in Asia.That's rather what I was getting at.
aneeshm
Deity
The issue is a complex one, and I'll try my best to make it clearer.
First of all, the Ramayana is not a piece of abstract myth to Indians. Yes, I mean Indians, as in ALL Indians. When a TV series based on it was broadcast around 20 years back, the streets used to be deserted. In spite of the terrible special effects, Hindus, Muslims, Christians, atheists, pretty much everyone used to find the nearest TV set and stick to it while the week's episode was being aired. Shopkeepers who had a TV in their shop would inevitably switch to this, and the customers would watch the entire thing waiting there, and nobody would mind.
It's a part of the national culture. It's something we grow up with, something which is part of everyday life. It is not merely another authority-based myth you are supposed to "believe in or else." It's something we take for granted, as much as the air we breathe. And that goes for all of us, not just Hindus. This is because Rama symbolises the ideal man, and not simply from a sectarian point of view. It is an ideal which can inspire anyone, and it does inspire nearly everyone.
A bit of the background:
Rama is a prince of Ayodhya. He is next in line for the throne. But through the political machinations of his father's youngest wife (there were three of them, and Rama was the son of the eldest), his father is forced to send him to exile in the forest for fourteen years, much against his own wish. The shock and kills the father. Rama's brother and wife insist on accompanying him to the forest, even though he says that it is his duty alone.
While in the forest, their party (or rather, Rama's wife, Sita) is attacked by the sister of a Rakshasa, Ravana (an ogre). Rama's brother cuts off her nose and ears. She flees. And she goes straight to Ravana's court, and twits him in front of all his ministers. Ravana, enraged, decides to have his revenge. He abducts Sita.
Rama is lost in grief, and knows not what to do. They coincidentally meet up with Surgiva, a Vanara (ape-man, the best way to think of them is as neanderthals) king who has been dispossessed of his throne. Rama restores to him his throne, and requests of him his help in recovering his beloved wife. They send out messengers in all four directions. The party which has gone south, towards Lanka, finds out that she is imprisoned in Ravana's capital.
Sugriva, the king Rama had restored to the throne, summons his army, and Rama and that army set out towards Lanks, to regain Sita.
It is there that they come to the southernmost tip of the Indian peninsula, and find that they cannot cross. Rama meditates, and tries to call upon Varuna, the master of the sea. But Varuna ignores him. Rama, enraged, takes out his bow, and threatens to destroy the sea if Varuna does nor come out. Varuna, humbled and terrified, comes out, and promises him that if he builds a bridge there, it will stand, and that he will personally make sure that even stone floats. The construction is overseen by a son of the architect of the gods.
Rama and army start the bridge-building process in earnest. They bring stones from everywhere, and build the bridge. Finally, the army crosses over, and the titanic war begins.
For what happens next - read the book.
Anyway - to return to the point.
When this idea was first cleared, Hindu organisations did not simply react in a knee-jerk fashion. The eminent scholar Dr. Murli Manohar Joshi wrote a letter to the administration, requesting an explanation of some facts, such as:
a) Why no alternate plan for achieving the same thing was examined,
b) Why the sentiments of millions of people were not taken into account, and probably the most important,
c) Why the massive and massively negative defence implications (for India) of creating such a channel were not given any thought, and
d) Why the environmental impact of this, which would lead to the destruction of an entire ecosystem, was not considered.
All of these objections were quite sensible, and none of them in the least extreme. However, there was no response from the government.
Again they tried to get attention, to show that the proper procedures had not been followed, and that the scheme was ill-advised on almost all grounds. Again, they got no response.
So finally, being completely fed up of government apathy and being ignored, people went on a massive strike throughout the country. It's not the first reaction, it's the reaction after months of provocation, when all proper channels to resolve the problem were tried and the government simply didn't pay attention, or stonewalled.
I've been seeing this build up for a long time now, because I got the first inkling of this many months ago, when the plan was first put in action.
Another problem, and probably the most emotive one, is the extremely crass and insulting way the government handled this. Two days back, they filed a motion in court saying that Rama never existed, that the Ramayana is a work of fiction and a myth and false, and that the bridge/coral structure is not man-made.
I could have accepted the last part - that the structure is not man-made - if they could have proven it, even though it doesn't have much of a bearing on the case.
However, calling the Ramayana nothing more than a work of fiction and a myth is tremendously insulting not only to Hindus, but to Indians in general. That is because it actually is something more than just the run-of-the-mill work of fiction or myth - it is a part of our common culture, and a part of life itself. It has a status which no work of fiction or myth has. It is not relevant whether or not it is fictional or mythical, because even if it is, it differs by virtue of the fact that it has acquired a greater meaning than just that.
Similarly, the bridge/coral structure is not important merely for it's value as something Rama built. It is valuable because it stands for something much more profound. It stands for the triumph of man over god and nature, for the divinity of man, and for the greatness of devotion. All this is implicit. Nobody thinks about this as explicitly as I am doing, but it is this sentiment which people feel is being violated, and which is why there is so much anger.
Even now, if it could be shown that the demolition of that bridge was imperative in the national interest, then Hindu organisations would try their utmost to find another way, but if none were found, they would back down.
To compare:
Imagine if, today, the government of the USA actually filed a motion in court alleging that the Bible was fiction. Or if some Muslim-majority country's government tried to say in court that the Quran and Hadith were fictitious in nature. Hell, just imagine the outcry if a Western government with a small Muslim minority said that the Quran was fiction.
It is only the fact that Hindus are, as a group, much more patient that the situation did not reach this point months earlier.
First of all, the Ramayana is not a piece of abstract myth to Indians. Yes, I mean Indians, as in ALL Indians. When a TV series based on it was broadcast around 20 years back, the streets used to be deserted. In spite of the terrible special effects, Hindus, Muslims, Christians, atheists, pretty much everyone used to find the nearest TV set and stick to it while the week's episode was being aired. Shopkeepers who had a TV in their shop would inevitably switch to this, and the customers would watch the entire thing waiting there, and nobody would mind.
It's a part of the national culture. It's something we grow up with, something which is part of everyday life. It is not merely another authority-based myth you are supposed to "believe in or else." It's something we take for granted, as much as the air we breathe. And that goes for all of us, not just Hindus. This is because Rama symbolises the ideal man, and not simply from a sectarian point of view. It is an ideal which can inspire anyone, and it does inspire nearly everyone.
A bit of the background:
Rama is a prince of Ayodhya. He is next in line for the throne. But through the political machinations of his father's youngest wife (there were three of them, and Rama was the son of the eldest), his father is forced to send him to exile in the forest for fourteen years, much against his own wish. The shock and kills the father. Rama's brother and wife insist on accompanying him to the forest, even though he says that it is his duty alone.
While in the forest, their party (or rather, Rama's wife, Sita) is attacked by the sister of a Rakshasa, Ravana (an ogre). Rama's brother cuts off her nose and ears. She flees. And she goes straight to Ravana's court, and twits him in front of all his ministers. Ravana, enraged, decides to have his revenge. He abducts Sita.
Rama is lost in grief, and knows not what to do. They coincidentally meet up with Surgiva, a Vanara (ape-man, the best way to think of them is as neanderthals) king who has been dispossessed of his throne. Rama restores to him his throne, and requests of him his help in recovering his beloved wife. They send out messengers in all four directions. The party which has gone south, towards Lanka, finds out that she is imprisoned in Ravana's capital.
Sugriva, the king Rama had restored to the throne, summons his army, and Rama and that army set out towards Lanks, to regain Sita.
It is there that they come to the southernmost tip of the Indian peninsula, and find that they cannot cross. Rama meditates, and tries to call upon Varuna, the master of the sea. But Varuna ignores him. Rama, enraged, takes out his bow, and threatens to destroy the sea if Varuna does nor come out. Varuna, humbled and terrified, comes out, and promises him that if he builds a bridge there, it will stand, and that he will personally make sure that even stone floats. The construction is overseen by a son of the architect of the gods.
Rama and army start the bridge-building process in earnest. They bring stones from everywhere, and build the bridge. Finally, the army crosses over, and the titanic war begins.
For what happens next - read the book.
Anyway - to return to the point.
When this idea was first cleared, Hindu organisations did not simply react in a knee-jerk fashion. The eminent scholar Dr. Murli Manohar Joshi wrote a letter to the administration, requesting an explanation of some facts, such as:
a) Why no alternate plan for achieving the same thing was examined,
b) Why the sentiments of millions of people were not taken into account, and probably the most important,
c) Why the massive and massively negative defence implications (for India) of creating such a channel were not given any thought, and
d) Why the environmental impact of this, which would lead to the destruction of an entire ecosystem, was not considered.
All of these objections were quite sensible, and none of them in the least extreme. However, there was no response from the government.
Again they tried to get attention, to show that the proper procedures had not been followed, and that the scheme was ill-advised on almost all grounds. Again, they got no response.
So finally, being completely fed up of government apathy and being ignored, people went on a massive strike throughout the country. It's not the first reaction, it's the reaction after months of provocation, when all proper channels to resolve the problem were tried and the government simply didn't pay attention, or stonewalled.
I've been seeing this build up for a long time now, because I got the first inkling of this many months ago, when the plan was first put in action.
Another problem, and probably the most emotive one, is the extremely crass and insulting way the government handled this. Two days back, they filed a motion in court saying that Rama never existed, that the Ramayana is a work of fiction and a myth and false, and that the bridge/coral structure is not man-made.
I could have accepted the last part - that the structure is not man-made - if they could have proven it, even though it doesn't have much of a bearing on the case.
However, calling the Ramayana nothing more than a work of fiction and a myth is tremendously insulting not only to Hindus, but to Indians in general. That is because it actually is something more than just the run-of-the-mill work of fiction or myth - it is a part of our common culture, and a part of life itself. It has a status which no work of fiction or myth has. It is not relevant whether or not it is fictional or mythical, because even if it is, it differs by virtue of the fact that it has acquired a greater meaning than just that.
Similarly, the bridge/coral structure is not important merely for it's value as something Rama built. It is valuable because it stands for something much more profound. It stands for the triumph of man over god and nature, for the divinity of man, and for the greatness of devotion. All this is implicit. Nobody thinks about this as explicitly as I am doing, but it is this sentiment which people feel is being violated, and which is why there is so much anger.
Even now, if it could be shown that the demolition of that bridge was imperative in the national interest, then Hindu organisations would try their utmost to find another way, but if none were found, they would back down.
To compare:
Imagine if, today, the government of the USA actually filed a motion in court alleging that the Bible was fiction. Or if some Muslim-majority country's government tried to say in court that the Quran and Hadith were fictitious in nature. Hell, just imagine the outcry if a Western government with a small Muslim minority said that the Quran was fiction.
It is only the fact that Hindus are, as a group, much more patient that the situation did not reach this point months earlier.
aneeshm
Deity
Basically, it doesn't matter if the Ramayana is real or not, and if the bridge is man-made or not - they both stand for much, much more.
As for the 5,000 to 7,000 years date - had Rama existed, that is probably the time he would have been around. It is also notable that sea levels were higher then.
Question to geologists and ecologists: can a coral structure be formed by the cannibalisation of the ruins of a bridge which uses limestone as a binder?
EDIT: Correcting an error.
As for the 5,000 to 7,000 years date - had Rama existed, that is probably the time he would have been around. It is also notable that sea levels were higher then.
Question to geologists and ecologists: can a coral structure be formed by the cannibalisation of the ruins of a bridge which uses limestone as a binder?
EDIT: Correcting an error.
