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Hippus

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by skallben, Jan 9, 2008.

  1. skallben

    skallben Diplomat

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    Playing a game now where I am facing a vast Hippus empire with Tasuke as leader. I have seen mounted units with 5 in movement and correct me if I'm wrong but more should easilly be possible. Native Hippus Stable-bonus, Mobility II and haste if you get Body magics. This is a terror to face.

    However, the real evil thing is the Raider trait (free commando promotion for most units), often seeing units on border-cities being able to run 15+ moves into your lands is extremely hard to defend against. A big stack can just bypass your border-defenses and run for the weakly defended cities you got miles away from the fronts. Playing Lanun I am spamming Pirate Coves and forts, plugging all kinds of holes between mountain and sea tiles, frankly Im unsure I'd manage this game if it wasnt for the nice terrain defenses I got blessing with this game.

    I really dislike how you cannot pillage roads in your own lands as you cannot really make chopepoints to hold those mounted units at bay. Still, this would only be a solution for human players, the quick conquests Tasuke can pull on ohter AI:s is quite amazing. I like the concept of a "horse-people" but I cannot help to thing that the amount of mobility they got in hostile lands is a bit over the top.

    A possible solution I can think of is to reintroduce Zones of Control from Fort/Castle/Citadel, not to make movement impossible but at least stagger it.

    Addendum:
    The biggest source of frustration by far; "X unit has fled from combat with your Inquisitor". Apparantly this is tied to withdrawal rate and attacking units inside my borders moves them to the borders, else they just get moved one square away from my attacker. Some units flees several times per turn making them next to impossible to kill and next time they come back, they are even more promoted :mad: :eek: :sad:
     
  2. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    I would like to see Zone of Control back, but not with that high chance, and having Withdrawal rate decrease it.

    Raiders is an excellent trait, especially combined with Agressive and horses, but remember he isn't getting any builder traits.

    Doviello and Tasunke are usually the AI's able to conquer the largest territories. Rohanna really builds a strong economic power usually while also being quite able at warfare cause of their fast horses, but not as good as Tasunke.
     
  3. kioras

    kioras Daemon Quellor

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    best stop for raiders?

    pillage all but a few boarder roads, and turn some open area between the empires into roadless forest, which would significantly slow any advance. Keep a few roads and stick concentrated defenses there
     
  4. Roghar

    Roghar Warlord

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    I love the huge speed horsemen can have, it finally makes them worthwhile despite the fact that in actual combat they tend to be a lot weaker than melee units, particularly in defence. A big stack of them can catch you completely by surprise

    All that really means is that if you are facing the hippus and they are decently strong, you need to make sure that your cities are adequately defended to survive a few turns. Once near your cities it isn't hard to pick off horsemen, they get no terrain bonuses. And there is no way they are bringing siege units or mages with them at that speed, so cultural defence, city walls will always hurt them.
     
  5. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    They don't need siege units, just a high amount of withdrawal specialists.
     
  6. Basil II

    Basil II Bulgar Slayer

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    Tasunke is indeed a pain to fight, but both his promotions are combat promotions...he *should* prosper in heavy warfare games.
     
  7. skallben

    skallben Diplomat

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    I don't feel that having to preemtively declare war to pillage his roads just in case he plans to invade you feels like something that should have to be done to defend against them...The idea works but I'm thinking more from a design point of view, that would be a practical bandaid to something I feel should be solved with the basic game mechanics.

    And no, they don't need siege weapons. Especially not as they can cross most mid-game empires in two turns so they can basically pick any of the weakest defended cities. The issue is that if they get through your fronts, they are so damn fast that you cannot catch up with them even in your own territory.

    Tasuke is a warlike leader, I appreciate that and it is a good concept, I just would like to see either the crazy possibilites with sneak-attacks looked over or some viable counters added.
     
  8. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

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    being able to pillage your own roads would be nice

    tasunke is scary, but thats alright

    if you have enemies who are raiders you should avoid spamming roads everywhere.. generally its wise to build roads sparingly and with purpose
     
  9. skallben

    skallben Diplomat

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    Problem is when you capture AI towns or your culture expands to AI territory, not really fun to pillage away Towns just to get rid of roads each time you capture a city :(
     
  10. smurven

    smurven Chieftain

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the only problem were the borders having roads, then it would be easy to choke the flow right after your borders, effectively making you ONLY need strong defense near your borders (STILL). sure they could choose how they want to approach your first city on the border, but if only your very outside is out of your control it shouldn't be too hard. Or if you conquered a whole civilization between you and hippus, if its so nasty to defend, im pretty sure sacrificing just the outside to pillage roads and such to defend yourself is a good idea. After all, its only the very border you need to do that to.
     
  11. Blakmane

    Blakmane Prince

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    tasunke is supposed to be scary. He's a double military trait leader in a military- themed civ. Out-build and out-research him- the mounted line is a pretty long and not particularly rewarding tech path. Counter his horseman spam with anti-horseman promos, and take an active role in defense rather than a passive role, or he will torch all of your improvements. High attack units are the best- archers are useless because he will simply ignore your defended locations.

    Remember, tasunke is at his strongest when he is doing the attacking. His units gain no defensive bonuses and their high withdrawal chance means nothing when you are the one attacking. Use this to your advantage.
     
  12. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    Since we have a discussion thread about Sun mana. I'll go ahead and suggest you place some well placed Desert tiles with Scorch as a counter to Tasunke. With a restricted road system. Every time you got Raiders neigbours, be wary where you place your roads.
     
  13. skallben

    skallben Diplomat

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    Thanks for all the gameplay advice guys, that was not why I posted this however. I had applied most strategies mentioned here but I still feel they are more of bandaids rather than a viable counter, I still vouch for homeland road-pillaging and ZoC :)

    I feel that the way you need to micromanage roads against raiders is clumsy, boring and a unfair advantage none of the AI:s have. Besides, road-microing only works until your front consists of captured cities with AI-roading, unless you pillage everything before yo ucapture each town :eek:

    One hole in the defenses and he can practically run through to your capital and sack it.
     
  14. TravellingHat

    TravellingHat Warlord

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    Not sure what to suggest to cut down on the micromanagement. Ideally, you'd want to halt your borders at convenient choke points, but that depends entirely on the map you get. Without natural choke points, you could perhaps build forts at suitable points along your borders (e.g. defensible hills, on roads) to at least slow them down. This requires some micromanagement, but unless borders shift dramatically, it should be something you can just set up and forget.

    The thing is, the entire point of commando is that they are damned quick and therefore hard to intercept. I'm aware my forts suggestion is far from a solution, but I think the situation is this: you CAN'T stop them, so putting some speed bumps in is the best compromise.

    By the way, if you do go with border forts, expect to lose them. Their task is not to keep the invader out, but to give you sufficient warning to mobilise your defenders.

    What you really need is your own rapid reaction force, promoted anti-cavalry. But even if you have such a force (easier with some civs than others), you still need to be able to deploy it before the buggers have pillaged you back to the stone age!
     
  15. thFrgttn

    thFrgttn Chieftain

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    Having just played as Tasuke/Hippus, I think the problem here is that commando is an extremely powerful promotion to be granting to almost every unit for free.
    It normally requires Combat IV before you can grant it.
    When you use the Hippus Stable you also get a free Horselord promotion (+1 movement). This means you seriously cover some ground (a pangaea continent of a normal size map in less than 3 moves.
    With friendly neighbouring civs that grant open borders you can just about invade from all directions at once.
     
  16. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

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    It would make one of the most hardest promotions to achieve in Civ4 (Commando) and a not too easy promotion to achieve in FFH2 (Commando) useless, if you could pillage your own roads.
     
  17. Halancar

    Halancar Warlord

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    It takes a big stack of horse units to take a city defended by archers or melee units of equivalent level. One strategy would be to put decent defenses in all your cities (not just the border ones), ignore his pillaging, and send your own big stacks to attack his cities. Another would be to build some mobile units of your own (recon or horse, or even mobility I melee), and attempt to engage him in your territory (where you don't need the commando promotion to match him). After all, he still has to come near your cities to do any harm, no matter how many move he has !

    Of course, playing Lanun, you are about the worst possible civ to stop him on land. Why not use your ships to land a big stack of units inside his empire and do some havoc of your own ?
     
  18. it-ogo

    it-ogo Hedgehog

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    Remember that now you can pillage your pirate cove and have a water tile. So put some efforts, build Great Chinease Wa... Channel and you are safe. :)
     
  19. NeoParn

    NeoParn Chieftain

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    Skallben;
    Your point is being addressed with band-aid advice, but the problem really doesn’t feel like a mechanics issue to me and most of the folks here would seem to agree.

    The Mounted line are slightly weaker than the melee line of the same tier (and metals). This means that against melee or archery units defending they should be at a disadvantage when attempting to crack cities. No bombardment and no collateral damage, so they should simply have to outnumber the defenders, probably by a fair number. Now with a high withdraw rate that huge stack can keep running for a while, but mounted units don't get march, and I don't think they can have medic. Some spell effects could help but they have to stop eventually. So, now we have a huge stack of mounted units with move five or six, they can get in 15 or 20 moves, but then they are stuck in your territory; or they can move in 7 or 10, attack and flee home. After attacking a city they should have some wounded, and now they have no defense bonus and the weaker defense str to boot. A small stack of from another city, or some defensive cavalry (always try to have a cavalry to "send in") or some fireballs should mince up that stack of mounted units. So the movement rate doesn't sound very unbalanced to me. They can act best as "raiders" really, go in, kill some workers, destroy a couple farms, or maybe sack a poorly defended border town, and then run to safety in their own lands.

    But thats just my opinion, I could be wrong.
     
  20. CyberChrist

    CyberChrist You caught my attention

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    It is a perfectly valid strategical move to pillage your own roads to prevent the enemy taking advantage of them (aka 'scorched earth'). I can see no logical reason why you shouldn't be able to do it.
     

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