Historical Challenge (concentrated historical feasibility testing): Pax Romana

[Blasphemous]

As those following the old thread already know, I had an idea to set up a series of historical challenges with the goal of finding out if real historical feats are feasible.
The first challenge I proposed was to see if a player can set up a Roman Empire resembling the historical one. In civ3 this was a lost cause since a Roman Empire would never die, but now with dynamic rise and fall, Rome is actually likelier to go down a-la fall of rome if it expands historically.

1:  Territory - borders must believably encompass at least 90% of the Roman Empire as of Trajan's rule ([URL="http://www.socialstudiesforkids.com/graphics/romanempiremaplarge.jpg"]map[/URL]), not entirely excluding any province or area (noteworthy extremities: England, Iberia, Dacia, Armenia, Mesopotamia, Mauretania)
2a: Infrastructure I - All cities under Roman control must be connected to the Roman trade network
2b: Infrastructure II - All cities above size 5 must have Aqueduct
3a: Culture and Establishment I - Roma and at least four other cities must be above size 4, have Barracks, and have 100 culture or more
3b: Culture and Establishment II - Roma and at least two other cities must have Collosseum
4:  TIMING - At a chosen point between AD 50 and AD 200, all above requirements must have already been accomplished

(Gif version of the goals with the map, to print and view while playing: link)
It may seem extremely hard and may literally be impossible, but the goal is to create suggestions for mod balancement that will allow the above goals to be completed. Keep in mind that it should be hard to achieve, require some luck, and that it should be impossible to get a little more than what the Roman Empire historically got by Trajan's time (if it's possible, it's too easy for Rome in the mod).
Everybody is invited to try, we'll decide in this thread when it's time to move on to the next challenges. I've got the following feats down, in no particular order, for future challenges:

• Alexander's Conquest (most of the known world in a few years)
• The Mongolian Empire (all of Asia in under 100 years)
• English Colonial Imperialism (the sun never sets on the British Empire)

 

[Methos]

My first attempt didn't go so good. I immediately went to war with Greece and conquered Athenai. The problem was I lost my momentun and stalemated.

I'll start off with expanding first and leaving Greece and Egypt until I control more area.

Edit: I like the idea of the English challenge for the next one.

 

[Gunner]

Here's a copy of one of my posts from the earlier thread about the Alexander challenge.

I was inspired by all of the talk about Rome and its conquests to attempt to recreate the conquests of Alexander. The game was set to the middle difficulty level to make it a bit easier (I usually play the highest). I made a valiant effort, but alas, it took me until 150 BC to destroy the Persians and conquer Egypt. I have confidence that I would be able to accomplish the goal if I were to try it again. Rather than me go through and describe everything I thought it would be better if I just showed you all some pictures

This is at 310 BC, the turn after which Alexander would have died historically.


This is 150 BC when I completed my conquests. I decided to not invade India.

I've gone on to completely dominate that game, I control most of Europe and am way ahead in points and techs.

 

[Elhoim]

A balanced thing to achieve would be that empires should be easy to create and hard to mantein...

 

[Gunner]

A balanced thing to achieve would be that empires should be easy to create and hard to mantein...

Thats really one of the core issues with civ. Everything is set up so that its the opposite of that.

 

[Elhoim]

Thats really one of the core issues with civ. Everything is set up so that its the opposite of that.

Yeah, but the apparition of new civs in this mod makes this scenario possible. With the possibility of adding new civs, it would be nice that every civ has a "counter civ", that acts as a challenge for it´s evergrowing empire.

 

[Blasphemous]

Okay, just did my first attempt, and when I discovered Calendar in 550AD I was shocked to discover how miserably I've failed. We should start to formulate conclusions for this challenge. I would say Rome should start with an extra worker, an extra galley and an extra Praetorian. That may go a long way in letting Rome set up a historical empire lightning-quick. It would let you get North Africa within about three turns of starting.

 

[Bolleque]

I believe there is one solution for all those empire challenges - more turns
Slower tech discovery but more time left for war.

 

[Blasphemous]

No, I think it's logistically feasible to create a historical Roman Empire in time, but it's just impossible to do so with the current start.
And I do think it's fair to conclude it's impossible to complete the challenge with the current conditions. Rhye, are you prepared to start tweaking the balance for this challenge?

 

[Bolleque]

I have never tried Rome but maybe I should

When defining start we should have in mind not only building Pax Romana but whole game. If we make Rome so strong in the very begining they could be invincible once empire is created. Then we have to strenghten new coming European civs and so on... All balancing is started from the scratch

 

[Blasphemous]

The point of the historical challenge is to focus on how possible it is to do one specific historical thing. If making an historical feat possible breaks the balance, obviously the balance has to be fixed, but that is not part of the historical challenge project, just a general mod development issue.

 

[Bolleque]

Yes I can agree with this. But I still think that adding more turns is better solution.
Even if you manage Roman Empire you surely cannot achieve that of Alexander or Genghis Khan - whatever starting power you give to them.

 

[Blasphemous]

We'll have to try those next, but I do believe it's possible.
I think adding turns is out of the question because it makes the game slower and this goes against one of the mod's primary goals.

I just remembered some ideas I had before for UP and UU tweaks that can help make this challenge possible.
One idea is to just give praetorians the March promotion. It makes a lot of sense and could be just enough to keep the legions marching quickly to reach Rome's historical peak.
The other idea is a general direction for something to add to the UP or replace it with somehow. The basic idea is to have conquests of cities by praetorians give you a little something to keep the empire growing. The way I thought to do it was that every time a praetorian conquers a city, that city receives walls automatically. Whenever a praetorian conquers a city size 5 or more, a 0 XP praetorian spawns in that city automatically. That alone can be enough to make the challenge possible, and it makes sense historically, since occupied populations were enslaved into the service of Rome, and legionaries were skilled in all the building crafts and would build their own walls (and roads).

 

[dh_epic]

You know, this kind of Historical Challenge stuff could make for a neat feature. If you achieve the Historical Challenge, you get some kind of bonus that really improves your shot at victory.

The design challenge would be coming up with a goal for EVERY civilization, and one that's not too complicated to implement.

Just a thought.

 

[OzzyKP]

No, I think it's logistically feasible to create a historical Roman Empire in time, but it's just impossible to do so with the current start.

I think it is just impossible to do with your conditions.

I got pretty darn close:



But then you said in addition to conquering/settling the historic extent of Rome you need aquaducts and colleseums and Rome has to be the top city in the world and...

You just need to remember this is a game.

 

[HÄI]

You just need to remember this is a game.

Usually it's easier in games to achieve greater things than in history.

 

[Bolleque]

There are things hardcoded in games - none in real life

 

[Blasphemous]

Ozzy, I'm impressed with what you managed to do but I really don't like your attitude. The goals aren't just some kooky set of rules I cooked up to give you a hard time. They're a very scaled-down representation of some of the Roman Empire's real achievements. This challenge is a concentrated testing effort! The goals are intended to let us know if what we're testing for is possible or not. I have already agreed it's impossible right now and I want us to explore how it can be made possible, because this mod simulates a reality in which it really was possible.

 

[dh_epic]

Lots of aqueducts, even more barracks, three colosseums... plus a fully connected trade network.

Sounds to me like something that needs to be tied to Rome's UP.

I think the UP might be a great way to encourage this. Rome is famous for its aqueducts!

 

[Rhye]

Rhye, are you prepared to start tweaking the balance for this challenge?

I'm not tweaking the balance for the challenge, but for the mod, if needed.
If I make Romans more powerful, I'll raise barbarian hordes too.