Historical flavour over accuracy

My latest Favorite Fact about Catherine and her meddlesome progeny is the fact that the future Henry III of France, when his father died leaving him King of France, was in Poland getting ready to be crowned King of Poland! A potential other Dual Leader?
Not a potential dual leader because the Sejm told him in no uncertain terms: you're king of France or you're king of Poland. Given he was universally despised in Poland, choosing king of France (and promptly dying from a jousting injury) was probably the right call. (Including the dying of a jousting injury. That part was important because it paved the way for his much better successor.)
 
Many would agree that a game like EU4 is an alt-history game beacuse it set a world closer to what we historicaly know, still the technology research is a "mana" spend button whichever you are researching Field Howitzer as Prussia the same you are researching Temples as Nyoongah. Each player draw the line of "realism" whatever they want since objetively the only realist mechanics to represent historical reality is the real world itself, there is always going to be some level of abstraction.

For sure, the boundary is a grey zone. We can disagree on where exactly it is. But just because we disagree on shades of grey doesn't mean that black and white are the same thing.

I, personally, would just about consider EU4 alt-history rather than only history-flavoured. This blog goes into the accuracy of its systems in great detail. The fact that it respects time and space matters a lot. It also models the interactions between things that are below the players immediate control to a substantial degree. For example, the complex network of trade flowing from node to node feels like it has a life of its own, and the player can interact to nudge it, but never very rarely control it. That's not to say that EU4 is a perfect emulation where everything that matters in real history is modelled one-to-one in the game (even attempting that would be insane IMO). But I think it does a decent enough job of abstracting those away to create a simulation of the higher level consequences to be called an alt-history simulator. An imperfect one, with far too much player autocracy, but the same things that weaken it as a history simulator strength it as a game.

So while Civilization is on the same spectrum, it's much further to the extreme of history-flavoured rather than alt-history. I'd say maybe the Total War series falls somewhere between Civ and EU4?
 
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She might be presented in an interesting way and be given fun mechanical abilities, but she has less historic *flavor* than a Napoleon, Charlemagne, or Joan of Arc. With Catherine, Firaxis has to lean entirely on their own contributions; with leaders like those mentioned, the player contributes his own background knowledge, enhancing the historical flavor.
If you define "flavor" by historical relevance sure. But I'd argue that giving something flavor means going out of the norm, such as Kristina for Sweden, or Seondeok for Korea. Whereas going Napoleon or Joan of Arc all the time would be the "bland" approach.
And this is coming from someone who would love Louis XIV because he'd check both boxes. :D
That is extraordinarily subjective. I've never encountered a depiction of Napoleon with more flavor than one of Humankind's paper dolls (probably in part because I find the real Napoleon less interesting than a paper doll). He certainly didn't have any personality or flavor in Civ5.
Well now you have the option of getting two different personalities of him. :lol:
 
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Not a potential dual leader because the Sejm told him in no uncertain terms: you're king of France or you're king of Poland. Given he was universally despised in Poland, choosing king of France (and promptly dying from a jousting injury) was probably the right call. (Including the dying of a jousting injury. That part was important because it paved the way for his much better successor.)
The fact that a Valois (potential) King of France was even considered for King of Poland is what I find amusing: it speaks, as stated, to the confused dynastic ties prevalent in Europe at the time.

And he was elected to the Polish throne (with the help of some hefty bribes) in 1573, although the election was boycotted by the Lithuanian nobility, which makes the legitimacy a bit strained. I believe to get the agreement at all Henry had to give up any claims to succession so that he couldn't start any kind of Franco-Polish Dynasty. Finally, of course, he didn't physically get to Poland and get 'officially' crowned until after his brother Charles IX died, so he returned to France almost immediately to claim the French throne. Supposedly, he did bring back the fork as an eating utensil to France, although the French later insisted that it was a 'native' French invention.

- And the jousting injury was Henry II, somewhat earlier. Henry III failed to produce a son, which resulted in a bunch of dynastic jockeying while he was alive, so he had the most vociferous jockey assassinated (the Duke of Guise) and was in turn assassinated himself. That left no simple line of succession and turned the French religious wars into a dynastic Succession war, which resulted in Henry of Navarre coming out on top as Henry "Paris is worth a Mass" IV.

The whole interconnected mess of religious and dynastic rivalry between the Valois, Guise, Bourbon and other families in France in Catherine's time would be nearly impossible to portray in a game: too much of it simply defies any mechanic or system to explain. Any rational 'political' calculations all too often were upended by sheer religious fanaticism and personal rancor between individuals and families that was homicidally vicious.
 
There’s truth to the idea that the games are historically flavored and not historically accurate but I do think the games should be applauded when they move in more accurate directions (no “Polynesian” or “Native American” civ) and critiqued when they portray certain people inaccurately (Victoria, Cyrus, Montezuma, Harald in VI).

I’m not asking for a history lesson but one of the best parts of these games is when they introduce people to lesser known corners of history like the Mapuche. It’d be a shame if the devs didn’t try to represent them accurately.
 
It's even less that. There's hardly any politics in Civilization at all! There's a thin layer of diplomacy. But there's no bargaining between different factions, trying to rally support for a cause, jostling for power over your colleagues, protecting yourself from rival politicians, etc... None of that is in the game. Happiness and Loyalty are very far removed and abstract caricatures of that, but it's not like we've ever had happiness per political party, social class and demography. Instead, you play as an omnipotent and autocratic embodiment of the collective will of your civilization that can directly affect any single part of it modelled by the game without having to deal with politics. I'm not sure how Civilization could be less of a political simulator.
The small states are important like the empires, in ancient times e. Medieval as realta small or medium politics like Bavaria or Florence, or Mantua, not rich as states and culturally huge, the historical simulation and also the respect of the realism of the reports between imperial, small and medium states
 
Great quote which shows the risk of having too many civs ( or cultures? nations? peoples?) in the game that non-historians do not know. I rather play against Napoleon or Louis XIV. than the Medici queen we saw in Civ VI. I hope that the civ rosters we saw in some threads here will not be true as they contain so many civs I have hardly heard of and don't know much about.
Playing Civ4 in 2007 as a teenager was literally the first time I've ever heard of Frederick the Great. And now he's one of my favourite historical figures. This argument is a case of underestimating one's audience
 
Playing Civ4 in 2007 as a teenager was literally the first time I've ever heard of Frederick the Great. And now he's one of my favourite historical figures. This argument is a case of underestimating one's audience

You're talking like Frederick the Great is some obscure historical leader and not one of the most important figures in modern German history
 
You're talking like Frederick the Great is some obscure historical leader and not one of the most important figures in modern German history
To most teenagers in the world, I'm sure Frederick the Great is obscure.
I can think of possibly one they can name but he's not Civ material.
 
Meh. We live in a computer simulation. Therefore everything we do is part of that simulation.

Therefore, Civ is a simulation. 😉

 
For sure, the boundary is a grey zone. We can disagree on where exactly it is. But just because we disagree on shades of grey doesn't mean that black and white are the same thing.

I, personally, would just about consider EU4 alt-history rather than only history-flavoured. This blog goes into the accuracy of its systems in great detail. The fact that it respects time and space matters a lot. It also models the interactions between things that are below the players immediate control to a substantial degree. For example, the complex network of trade flowing from node to node feels like it has a life of its own, and the player can interact to nudge it, but never very rarely control it. That's not to say that EU4 is a perfect emulation where everything that matters in real history is modelled one-to-one in the game (even attempting that would be insane IMO). But I think it does a decent enough job of abstracting those away to create a simulation of the higher level consequences to be called an alt-history simulator. An imperfect one, with far too much player autocracy, but the same things that weaken it as a history simulator strength it as a game.

So while Civilization is on the same spectrum, it's much further to the extreme of history-flavoured rather than alt-history. I'd say maybe the Total War series falls somewhere between Civ and EU4?
Actually, while EU2 was very much an example of "alt-history" (especially after the excellent work done by the Alternate Grand Campaign/Event Exchange Project mod!), I think EU4 tends to be much more unmoored from history, to the point where I don't think of it as alt-history anymore, but, rather, play-history.

It's interesting that I was thinking earlier today about just how to think about games and their "historicity". EU, and EU2 were interesting in that the events in the game forced the player to re-live the actual history of the country they were playing. It meant that major historical events (like the end of the Hundred Years War) were impossible to avoid, regardless of choices one made that, in reality, would have prevented those events from occurring. That meant that a player of EU2 ended up VERY immersed in their country's history (I used to do extensive research into the history of a country I played, especially in MP, and REALLY especially if I was writing some sort of ongoing AAR. That's been much less true with EU4, where historicity can be thrown out the window in most cases. It's like playing with the building blocks of history; call it LEGO history.

By comparison, Civilization and its progeny have never been about being historical. I mean, seriously, a game which allows you to start in 4000 BC as the Americans? Which from its initial iteration involved no guarantee that traditional historical rivals would even be able to meet (in Civ, the Germans or the French can play, but not both!)? A game that had you researching only one technological advance at a time? You can learn to sail, or you can learn to make bronze spears, but you can't be doing both at the same time? A game that allowed historical AI leaders to undertake actions that they would never have countenanced in real life (and I don't just mean Mr. Nuking Gandhi!). The game wasn't historical at all! What it DID have was a whole bunch of what we might call the Name, Image, and Likeness of History. Romans, English, Mongols, etc. Accurate city names. The Ancient (and modern!) Wonders of the World. Military units from antiquity, and from modern times. For anyone with a bent to studying things historical, the game has always been a wonderful toy. But we didn't get deeply into it because of its "historicity", since it had very little.*

To use the metaphor from the OP: I think Civ isn't even history flavored; I think it's simply Iron Chef, where you have to produce a completed meal using standard historical ingredients. Yeah, maybe we've stretched that metaphor a bit thin, but it seems pretty apt, especially when one thinks about playing the game in MP.

A different analogy is Star Trek. The Next Generation was somewhat flavored like the original; it was really Gene Roddenberry's attempt to make the show he intended in the first place, and couldn't because the network wanted more "Action!" (usually involving getting Kirk to tear his shirt and kiss someone). But modern Trek shows aren't really Star Trek flavored, even; they are, in my opinion, just shows that use the original names and concepts, but re-work them to have a different kind of fun. That's Civ in a nutshell.
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* I will note that I do think the two things that gave it some historical flavor were the tech tree, which, while an artificial limitation on technological advance, did attempt to tie things together in much the way that James Burke showed us in Connections; and the whole inter-relationship of food, hammers, and gold. That mini-lesson in social economics was especially intriguing; one of the most fun parts of taking on a new iteration of Civ is learning just how they have mucked around with that!
 
To most teenagers in the world, I'm sure Frederick the Great is obscure.
I can think of possibly one they can name but he's not Civ material.

I understand that but the post he was responding to was about having more recognizable civs/leaders in the game rather than completely obscure ones like Catherine De Medici.. I'd hardly consider Frederick the Great and Germany to be an obscure choice
 
I understand that but the post he was responding to was about having more recognizable civs/leaders in the game rather than completely obscure ones like Catherine De Medici.. I'd hardly consider Frederick the Great and Germany to be an obscure choice
Thanks, that is what I wanted to say. In a football match it is more fun to me to play against Liverpool than, e.g. Wrexham. In Civ I prefer Napoleon to Katherine de Medici. I like playing as Egypt but finishing as Buganda does not sound like something I would like to do. I had not heard of Buganda before the presentation and looked it up on the German Wikipedia side which basically says they existed and are now part of Uganda. I know that on this forum I probably have the minority view but I do not thin that is the case for the overall playership.
 
I understand that but the post he was responding to was about having more recognizable civs/leaders in the game rather than completely obscure ones like Catherine De Medici.. I'd hardly consider Frederick the Great and Germany to be an obscure choice
Catherine De Medici may be obscure to you, but maybe not to other people. At least now she's a lot more well known in the Civ community.
I had not heard of Buganda before the presentation and looked it up on the German Wikipedia side which basically says they existed and are now part of Uganda. I know that on this forum I probably have the minority view but I do not thin that is the case for the overall playership.
I had never known about the Mapuche or the Cree before they joined in Civ 6. But I looked them up and I found them interesting. I personally find it a positive thing, learning something new, than just staying with what I know.
 
I understand that but the post he was responding to was about having more recognizable civs/leaders in the game rather than completely obscure ones like Catherine De Medici.. I'd hardly consider Frederick the Great and Germany to be an obscure choice
That's you and most of the Western world (or at least Europe). Before I played Civ4 I didn't know he was a famous figure. I grew up in a country where the only popularly recognized leader in German history is He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named.
Catherine De Medici may be obscure to you, but maybe not to other people. At least now she's a lot more well known in the Civ community.
Ironically enough, I knew about Catherine de Medici when I was a kid through magazine trivia before I even knew about Frederick the Great. Obscurity is very relative.
I know that on this forum I probably have the minority view but I do not thin that is the case for the overall playership.
The point of my reply is that Civ is as much an opportunity for players to learn about history as it is to play its "greatest hits". It opens players to other leaders and civilizations they might otherwise see as obscure. That is one of the reasons people love these games so much, and the reason some of them become interested in history and pursue becoming historians. I'm certainly one of them. Arguing against the notion that Civ can be a tool for education is arguing for ignorance. It can be more than just a game.
 
Actually, while EU2 was very much an example of "alt-history" (especially after the excellent work done by the Alternate Grand Campaign/Event Exchange Project mod!), I think EU4 tends to be much more unmoored from history, to the point where I don't think of it as alt-history anymore, but, rather, play-history.

It's interesting that I was thinking earlier today about just how to think about games and their "historicity". EU, and EU2 were interesting in that the events in the game forced the player to re-live the actual history of the country they were playing. It meant that major historical events (like the end of the Hundred Years War) were impossible to avoid, regardless of choices one made that, in reality, would have prevented those events from occurring. That meant that a player of EU2 ended up VERY immersed in their country's history (I used to do extensive research into the history of a country I played, especially in MP, and REALLY especially if I was writing some sort of ongoing AAR. That's been much less true with EU4, where historicity can be thrown out the window in most cases. It's like playing with the building blocks of history; call it LEGO history.

By comparison, Civilization and its progeny have never been about being historical. I mean, seriously, a game which allows you to start in 4000 BC as the Americans? Which from its initial iteration involved no guarantee that traditional historical rivals would even be able to meet (in Civ, the Germans or the French can play, but not both!)? A game that had you researching only one technological advance at a time? You can learn to sail, or you can learn to make bronze spears, but you can't be doing both at the same time? A game that allowed historical AI leaders to undertake actions that they would never have countenanced in real life (and I don't just mean Mr. Nuking Gandhi!). The game wasn't historical at all! What it DID have was a whole bunch of what we might call the Name, Image, and Likeness of History. Romans, English, Mongols, etc. Accurate city names. The Ancient (and modern!) Wonders of the World. Military units from antiquity, and from modern times. For anyone with a bent to studying things historical, the game has always been a wonderful toy. But we didn't get deeply into it because of its "historicity", since it had very little.*

To use the metaphor from the OP: I think Civ isn't even history flavored; I think it's simply Iron Chef, where you have to produce a completed meal using standard historical ingredients. Yeah, maybe we've stretched that metaphor a bit thin, but it seems pretty apt, especially when one thinks about playing the game in MP.

A different analogy is Star Trek. The Next Generation was somewhat flavored like the original; it was really Gene Roddenberry's attempt to make the show he intended in the first place, and couldn't because the network wanted more "Action!" (usually involving getting Kirk to tear his shirt and kiss someone). But modern Trek shows aren't really Star Trek flavored, even; they are, in my opinion, just shows that use the original names and concepts, but re-work them to have a different kind of fun. That's Civ in a nutshell.
_______________
* I will note that I do think the two things that gave it some historical flavor were the tech tree, which, while an artificial limitation on technological advance, did attempt to tie things together in much the way that James Burke showed us in Connections; and the whole inter-relationship of food, hammers, and gold. That mini-lesson in social economics was especially intriguing; one of the most fun parts of taking on a new iteration of Civ is learning just how they have mucked around with that!
Leaders are useless: they are just names, Julius Caesar, Napoleon, Stalin, out of historical context they are meaningless and better personalised leaders according to the period and historical situation
 
Because he killed more than Stalin or Genghis Khan? Ah, no he didn't.
Given 31 years in office he would have overtaken Stalin and Mao. Here's a fun idea: maybe we don't include any recent mass murderers, regardless of ideology. :rolleyes:
 
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