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Historical Inaccuracies or Game Play alterations?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - The History of Three Kingdoms' started by MooFreaky, Apr 1, 2010.

  1. MooFreaky

    MooFreaky Meatbag Destroyer

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2003
    Messages:
    140
    Hey all,

    I've been getting back into this Mod again after reading the Romance of the Three Kingdoms. I was already very familiar with the history of the Warring State & Three Kingdom period, but the book has made me more aware of a few things that don't line up with the Mod.

    I am assuming that there are balance reasons behind much of it (or something along those lines) but thought I'd mention them anyway just to make sure.

    My current game is as Yuan Shu on Emperor on the biggest map 196 AD, so most of my thoughts centers Yuan Shu and the surrounding areas.
    He had done this well before Yuan Shu declared himself Emperor (as it was only after his suppression of the South West that Sun Ce demanded the return of the Imperial Seal, and Yuan Shu was still biding his time with it waiting for the opportune moment to declare himself Emperor.

    In the 196 start Sun Ce has only marginal control of the south. However, before 195 he had defeated Yan Baihu, Wang Lang (who survived but fled way to the South) et all and had complete control of the South West.


    Cao Cao did not go to war with Lu Bu until 198 AD, before this he was busy dealing with Zhang Xiu and Liu Baio. Even then 196 is still pre War with Xiu.

    Before the war with Lu Bu, Yuan Shu had lost Shou Chun to Cao Cao, while his rear was destroyed by Sun Ce.

    Is there a reason, beyond balance, that Lu Bu begins with 2 cities? He only controlled Xiaopei, before fleeing briefly to Xiapi after being defeated by Cao Cao.

    Shouldn't Liu Baio and Sun Ce also have a rather sour relationship? Liu Baio was Sun Jian's sworn enemy and was the opponent Sun Jian was fighting when he was killed. If nothing else Liu Baio was a rival for control of the south and that was something that would irritate Sun Ce (and historically he was eager to go to war against Liu Baio and was easily convinced to by Cao Cao just after their war against Yuan Shu).

    I haven't heard of Liu Chong, and the only Chen I have encountered was from a much later period. Similarly Liu Yao down south is another faction to which I have no reference. Are these factions made up for balance purposes? If not, can you provide a link to some source material for them, as I would be most interested to read up on them.



    Obviously none of them are huge issues or anything, just things I was pointing out in case they had gone under the radar. Plus I'm just interested.
    The game runs superbly IMO, so there I am not suggesting changes, I just like to hear why things ended up the way they do because I find the workings very interesting.
     
  2. AnotherPacifist

    AnotherPacifist Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2007
    Messages:
    4,878
    Lu Bu did control some of Cao's cities shortly before he was captured later in Xiapi (due to a revolt against Cao). From Wikipedia:
    Liu Biao and Sun Ce start out with bad relations in the later scenarios.
    I haven't heard of Liu Chong before either (since he is not in RoTK) apparently he is in the Records and the bio of Yuan Shu does mention him:
    http://kongming.net/novel/kma/yuanshu.php
    Liu Yao is a short-lived warlord (if he can be called as such, just like Kong Rong who was more of an administrator) who ruled the area currently assigned him in the game. Taishi Ci served him before he was defeated.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Yao_(Eastern_Han_Dynasty_warlord)
     
  3. SlickSlicer

    SlickSlicer Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2010
    Messages:
    5
    Hey guys, I'm a big 3K fan. I have a lot of books on the subject (both related to the novel and related to the actual history). When I saw this mod I jizzed all over the place.

    I haven't tried it out yet, but I'd be happy to give some tips from what I know of the period once I do. Some of the ruler choices seem a little questionable to me. Liu Chong was extremely minor for instance. So much so that it took me a little while to remember who he was: An insignificant local ruler in the South that was curbstomped by Yuan Shu.

    http://www.anu.edu.au/asianstudies/decrespigny/peace1_part5.pdf

    He is mentioned in the Zizhi Tongjian (translated here by Dr. Rafe de Crespigny) briefly, but his kingdom was so trivial that it is easy to forget about.

    Well aside from that minor gripe, I really appreciate the effort you guys took to research everything and make such an AMAZING looking mod. Based on what I've seen, this looks absolutely brilliant.

    Edit: Out of curiosity, where did you get that Liu Yao was Buddhist? Is that based on Zhai/Ze Rong or was it just an embellishment for creativity purposes?

    Edit: Holy :):):):) multiplayer works too. Are you guys wizards?
     
  4. AnotherPacifist

    AnotherPacifist Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2007
    Messages:
    4,878
    Well, minor or not, they are there, and their UU's rock (you can conquer the world with Chen's Crossbows).
     
  5. SlickSlicer

    SlickSlicer Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2010
    Messages:
    5
    Indeed. Now that I have seen the full extent of the roster, I think I should not have been so quick to complain. You guys added in nearly every major player, and even some minor ones. I was pretty surprised to see Gongsun Du for instance, a frequently overlooked but nonetheless significant character of the time.

    No more complaints from me. Mod looks amazing, was easy to install, runs flawlessly, and has some pretty cool changes.
     
  6. DemonicInfluenc

    DemonicInfluenc Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2007
    Messages:
    7
    Wait, multiplayer works? I tried it and got oos in 3 turns :(
     
  7. SlickSlicer

    SlickSlicer Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2010
    Messages:
    5
    Hmm...I tested it out with one dude and it worked, but I'm not sure how many turns we did.

    When I tested it with that dude and another guy, though, it OOS'd.

    So I dunno. :king:
     
  8. Graiskye

    Graiskye Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2010
    Messages:
    24
    Wikipedia shouldn't be quoted for anything.
    Ever.
    There is a lot of BAD info Wikipedia. Info that has never been checked and never will be checked as for any basis in fact, but is now being passed off daily as in fact, fact.
    Ive read several stories where parts of blogs and other writings have shown up as FACT in Wiki, when they were literally made up.
    Wiki is only as reliable as the source that put it up, and seeing as how it is practically anonymous, its not very reliable, an should NEVER be quoted as historical fact, but I am sure it will be more and more. Shouldn't come as a surprise, half of the history of the United States is either made up :):):):):):):):) to please people in power, or so heavily massaged, as to not be relying in fact anymore, so kinda like WIKI in a lot of ways.
    If you want to actually be taken seriously, Id look a little deeper than Wiki, which is becoming increasingly harder with its proliferation as a 'fact sheet', and everyone taking it as the gods honest truth.
    What a joke.
    Wiki the dumbing down of our entire history.
    'Its too damn complicated, lets make it easier and more fun to digest, big words are boring, and cause brain ache.'
     
  9. AnotherPacifist

    AnotherPacifist Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2007
    Messages:
    4,878
    I forgot to mention that I read RoTK twice in traditional Chinese...does that work for you? (I quote wikipedia only because it's a relatively accessible English source.)
     
  10. Scholar321

    Scholar321 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2007
    Messages:
    5
    Romance of the Three Kingdoms is a glorified historical fiction novel written by an author who lived well over a thousand years after the event occurred. The San Guo Zhi and the Zizhi Tongjian are historically accurate sources. The Zizhi Tongjian was a work composed by Sima Guang, but used many thousands of historical records in the compilation, most of which are lost to history and known only through Sima Guang. The San Guo Zhi was written by Chen Shou, an official from the last years of Han-Shu and the early days of Jin. He was known as being remarkably unbias and is known for combining the records of Wei, early Jin, Shu, and Wu.

    In addition the historical record has state funded propaganda, more or less. Characters that were known to be talented and loyal are praised. Characters that show themselves to be no better or worse than any other warlord, but usurp power from the empire and found their own Dynasty are condemned to all eternity as evil. Its rather funny how later Confucian scholars think people like Yuan Shu was born with the idea of supplanting the Han and every action he took in his life was to make himself Emperor. "Yuan Shu stands up for Liu Xie so as to not sponsor a new Emperor in the form of Liu Yu. Hm... It must have been because he wanted to be Emperor, because that has to be the case because he declared himself Emperor some years later." even when it is made very clear that Yuan Shu only wanted to declare himself Emperor after hearing of a prophecy some years prior to that. It was a tragic case of self fulfilling prophecy. There are some rather good essays on the subject.

    Nevertheless I must praise the work done on this mod. I played it quite a lot a year or so ago. After reinstalling Civilizations 4 I came in to see how well my favorite mod was doing.
     

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