Historical Realism vs Gameplay

[AfterShafter]

... I'm actually talking to Imperator1984, but since you're asking so nicely...

Ah, sorry. Next time I'm in Denmark I'll make sure to behave just in case you're around in any case

 

[Diamondeye]

Ah, sorry. Next time I'm in Denmark I'll make sure to behave just in case you're around in any case

You won't have to, as I said I am against all forms of violence. But I live right next to a huge ghetto, so for your own safety, do not drop by

Come on guys, try and get this discussion back on topic. Please drop the racial discussion.

Will do command.


I think gameplay matters far more. Historical accuracy has increased (Leaders: Cleo -> Hatty, Joan D'arc -> Napoleon), and I think it's nice as it is. Pedia entries would be nice if they were a little better, but hell, once I learn those XML and Python things I'll correct it myself. And that's the big plus of Civ4

 

[jessiecat]

Now guys. "You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"

Thanks Methos et. al for the support. Lets play Civ. OK?

 

[Diamondeye]

Now guys. "You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"

Thanks Methos et. al for the support. Lets play Civ. OK?

Hehe, Dr. Strangelove ftw...

And I'd like to play Civ, but I have to do my homework. Which is why I'm hanging around in here...

 

[kristopherb]

Hehe, Dr. Strangelove ftw...

And I'd like to play Civ, but I have to do my homework. Which is why I'm hanging around in here...

So civfanatics is a step down from civ?

The a game can never be historicaly accurate.

 

[troytheface]

well the american UU is a bit of an issue in so far as the historical realism.

A nuke UU is a bit impractical, the Monitor (ironclad) never really made america a powerhouse,..so i would vote for "Cowboy" (replaces Calvary) - everyone else in the world knows the ol american cowboy, they were around when america started to be imperilistic ect. Also the upgrade to Attack choppers makes sense becuase i think that air calvary was an american invention.

I like the Seal, and can buy a Marine UU but England and Isreal probably have just as good if not better special ops troops, not to mention the Russians. (wonder what they call their special ops)

 

[balthamael]

I always considered Civ Fanatics Forums to be slightly higher-up, intellectually, than most gaming forums, mostly due to the fact that CIV is a moderatley complicated game. Never did I suspect I'd hear such bigoted crap spouted here.

Liberals are psuedo-Marxists now? So, refusing to burn homosexuals at the stake and incarcerate the non-believers, I'm now apparently Josef Stalin. Right. Maybe you should look up Liberal, and realise that it means a political movement in favour of freedom. Hardly Gulag people.Freedom; Something your right-on, right-wing politics seem to love to defend, by slaughtering innocents, spouting bigoted comments, political imprisonment and passing the laws that rip apart the very Constitution you claim to be so eager to save. So, desiring the very freedom your nation was built around now makes one a traitor? Do you live in America or Nazi Germany?

Apparently, all 'negros' use Gangsta' speak and cry about how the honky gets them down. Have you ever spoken to a black person? Amazingly, you'll realise that they are, and I understand this is shocking, human. They have opinions. They live. They love. (I know you'll respond to this with some bizarre statement claiming that black people are only as intelligent as us ******** Liberals, har-de-har-har. Just don't bother.)

Black people can never form a civilization? Well, what about Mali? Zimbabwe, back in the day? Some of the greatest nations in the world, at thier time. Sure, Africa may be in a state now, due to slavery, Imperialism and unfair trade, which, of course, are supported by people like your fine self. Black people are never intelligent? I know it's a terrible example, but Malcolm X was well known for his eloquence and intelligence. As was his altogether nicer counterpart, Martin Luther King.

England is a 'cesspool' of multiculturalism. And America, with it's 99% immigrant population (How many Native Americans are there left after that paticular genocide?) is, of course, not a 'cesspool'. Silly me for forgetting that the White man originated in America. Well, I'm happy to admit I have a Muslim friend, and he's immensley patriotic about Britain. It depresses him that Terrorism exists, and he has even got into arguments at his mosque about other's radical ideals. But obviously, this human being, with free will, has no choice but to be a terrorist, and the days are just ticking by until he blows me up.

There is no point in serious argument here, because, quite frankly, you have absoloutley no facts, only your sick opinions and quotations from equally ignorant people. Having a Doctorate, amazingly, does not entitle you to pass judgement on the world.

Moderator Action: Warned! - Continuing a discussion when told to stop.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Bhruic]

It irritates me to no end when people do stuff like this.

Speaking of being irritated...

Obviously, the answer is both!

That's an impossible answer. No matter how you design the game, you're going to run into situations where you have to choose being representing something in an accurate historical manner, or making it less realistic in order to make it more fun. It's like being asked "Which came first, the chicken or the egg", and answering "both". It's a non-sensical answer.

Basically, there are two ways that you can handle game development when it comes to something like Civ - you can make a fun game, and then add historical accuracy, or you can make a historical accurate game and add fun. In Civ, they chose the former. That doesn't mean there's no realism in the game - of course there is. But whenever realism and game balance came into conflict, game balance typically won.

Realism can be adequately captured without compromising balance. To me, a lot of the "little" things, which have no bearing on balance, add up to realism: things like unique great people names instead of one broad list for everybody, or actually getting the unit names and pedia entries correct. (It's the legion, not the praetorian, you idiots!!! Where did Firaxis learn its history--from Gladiator? )

All you're doing here is putting your personal scale on historical accuracy. Which is fine. By why end it there? Someone is always going to push the boundary. Instead of unique great people for each Civ, why not unique great people that only show up during the correct era? And then how about unique great people that only show up during the correct era and in the proper city. And then how about unique great people that only show up during the correct era, in the right city, and can only be used for whatever that great person is best known?

Of course by this point we are rapidly approaching lunacy when it comes to a game like Civ IV - which is exactly my point. Civ IV sacrificed realism when it came to great people in order to make them work in terms of game balance. That doesn't mean they can add realistic touches, but it's quite clear those touches are afterthoughts - not the focus.

That makes the poll question entirely apt - considering that you are going to have conflicts between realism and game balance, which should win out? Depends on the game, of course, but I almost always vote for game balance.

(now what you could have argued is whether "game balance" and "fun" are synonomous, and that for some people "realism" is "fun" - but you didn't )

Bh

 

[troytheface]

i would think that the egg came first if birds evolved from dinosaurs and those dinosaurs were egg layers.

 

[jessiecat]

With you there, Bal! Hope you noticed that the creep's been banished. See
previous posts. Cheers.

 

[dragodon64]

I always considered Civ Fanatics Forums to be slightly higher-up, intellectually, than most gaming forums, mostly due to the fact that CIV is a moderatley complicated game. Never did I suspect I'd hear such bigoted crap spouted here.

Liberals are psuedo-Marxists now? So, refusing to burn homosexuals at the stake and incarcerate the non-believers, I'm now apparently Josef Stalin. Right. Maybe you should look up Liberal, and realise that it means a political movement in favour of freedom. Hardly Gulag people.Freedom; Something your right-on, right-wing politics seem to love to defend, by slaughtering innocents, spouting bigoted comments, political imprisonment and passing the laws that rip apart the very Constitution you claim to be so eager to save. So, desiring the very freedom your nation was built around now makes one a traitor? Do you live in America or Nazi Germany?

Apparently, all 'negros' use Gangsta' speak and cry about how the honky gets them down. Have you ever spoken to a black person? Amazingly, you'll realise that they are, and I understand this is shocking, human. They have opinions. They live. They love. (I know you'll respond to this with some bizarre statement claiming that black people are only as intelligent as us ******** Liberals, har-de-har-har. Just don't bother.)

Black people can never form a civilization? Well, what about Mali? Zimbabwe, back in the day? Some of the greatest nations in the world, at thier time. Sure, Africa may be in a state now, due to slavery, Imperialism and unfair trade, which, of course, are supported by people like your fine self. Black people are never intelligent? I know it's a terrible example, but Malcolm X was well known for his eloquence and intelligence. As was his altogether nicer counterpart, Martin Luther King.

England is a 'cesspool' of multiculturalism. And America, with it's 99% immigrant population (How many Native Americans are there left after that paticular genocide?) is, of course, not a 'cesspool'. Silly me for forgetting that the White man originated in America. Well, I'm happy to admit I have a Muslim friend, and he's immensley patriotic about Britain. It depresses him that Terrorism exists, and he has even got into arguments at his mosque about other's radical ideals. But obviously, this human being, with free will, has no choice but to be a terrorist, and the days are just ticking by until he blows me up.

There is no point in serious argument here, because, quite frankly, you have absoloutley no facts, only your sick opinions and quotations from equally ignorant people. Having a Doctorate, amazingly, does not entitle you to pass judgement on the world.

OK for starters, I don't believe that all people are born equal, nor do I believe that race has anything to do with it. People (usually) behave as the community around them. A Norwegian baby who grew up in an African tribe would behave like those around him, just as a Zulu adopted from birth into a European family would behave like them.

I lived in a predominantly black ghetto in America for ~8 months, and I have to tell you it was hell. Hardly a week went by without a rape, murder or arrest. Safety was my greatest fear. When we moved to a much richer neighboorhood, our neighbors threw us a welcome party during the first week. We joined up at the community swimming pool, which was a well kept volunteer-based place. The aura of the places was much different, not because of the race of the inhabitants (though there was a marked difference), but in the culture.

 

[Woodreaux]

I say balanced gameplay hands down. I realize that the reason no civ in real life has conquered the world, won a cultural victory, AP election etc, etc, ad naseum... is because nature created its own balance and rules. Thus, it could be said that a totally realistic historic simulation would by definition have balanced gameplay.
There's just one problems with this. To my knowledge, IRL civilizations are not guided by immortal singular entities (aka the player or AI). I like the interface that Firaxis created. I think the immortal leader concept rules. Getting rid of the gaming paradigm for the sake of realism would make the game a lot less fun.

 

[Brandonazz]

Whoa. Is this one thread or two?

Well lets see, I'm an EU fan so additional accuracy would be nice, but gameplay should still hold trump.

 

[Methos]

Moderator Action: I asked several times that the racism discussion be ended. It did not, so consider this thread closed!

If you wish to continue the OP topic of this thread, or the non-racial discussion currently in progress, please create another thread. That topic is fine and very interesting. Just make sure the racism discussion ends here.