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Historical USA Starting Save

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Rhye's and Fall of Civilization' started by Mazzini, Mar 12, 2010.

  1. Mazzini

    Mazzini Chieftain

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    Something that always really bugged me about playing as USA in RFC is that by starting so late and waiting through so many turns of auto-play for your spawn even in the 600 AD game, you have a lot of randomness in the starting state of the world. Seeing as I always enjoyed RFC more where in the earlier spawns, where you start at a kind of a set point and create history going forward, I often felt like most of the alt-history of my world had already taken place as USA.

    So I was hoping I could make a USA starting savegame that is pretty historical, at least the broad strokes. I'm talking a powerful Britain at war with me with the Eastern seaboard flips, a very powerful but friendly france who hates the English and is the main power on the continent, the Spanish controlling south/central America, the Portuguese in Brazil, and the Dutch in asia and africa and generally all over the place. Germany I imagine would be collapsed and hopefully set to rise in the 19th century.

    So I went into world builder and settled cities in the proper spots for various countries and deleted the old cities, trying to keep everything more or less in order. I also adjusted relations between civs to be more realistic. The problem was stability- the Dutch and Spanish went from stable to collapsing within 2 turns, probably because I destroyed their cities and gave them a bunch of new ones!

    Is there any way I could set stability using world builder? Or maybe someone else has done a reasonably good job of constructing what I am trying to achieve here?
     
  2. pesgores

    pesgores Deus Vult!

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    I have a 3000 BC start save. It took 1 hour to load lol. You want it?
     
  3. jmerry

    jmerry Chieftain

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    Just save it in WB - the WB save doesn't store permanent stability modifiers, or the number of recent cities lost for that collapse trigger. You don't even have to play the 360 turns beforehand, just set up the map and then edit the turn number/leaders with a text editor.

    For Germany to reliably spawn in the 19th century, you'd have to add something to the RiseAndFall python; that would be a separate modmod. It probably makes more sense to have Germany be Prussia, with independents for Austria and the western part of the country.
     
  4. Mazzini

    Mazzini Chieftain

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    So if I did this, I wouldn't have problems with, say, the Dutch suddenly having 15 more cities and collapsing? Does stability start off neutral for all parties when you do this WB save method?

    Good idea on Prussia... I guess I could just make them powerful enough that their expansion over the next century or two is reliable.
     
  5. Mazzini

    Mazzini Chieftain

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    Alright, I made a basic version of this from a 1775 spawning save so that most of the work would be done for me. I created fairly historical colonial empires for the Europeans, deleted the Arabs and gave the Ottomans the stretch from North Africa to Afghanistan/Samarkand. I set the French at war with most of Continental Europe and gave them 20 free Riflemen to act as Napoleon's Grand Army. The Germans had conquered all of the Vikings and Italy, and I respawned the Vikings and made Italy independent, but let the Germans keep Austria/Hungary. This was probably a mistake, and I think I should make them Independent for now.

    Early testing reveals a few main problems.

    1. France sucks at fighting the war even with 20 free riflemen, and monopoly on nationalism. It may just be that Germany is too strong with having control of Austria/Hungary, and they have too much on their hands since they're also at war with the English, Dutch, and RUssians. It seems like they delete the riflemen because they've repeatedly lost them all for little or no gain.

    2. Turkey collapses too quickly, around 1850. I want them unstable, but a little less so to have them collapse around WW1 time. For some reason the Arabs are still "alive" even though I deleted all their cities and units in the .WBS. This may be a good thing since the Arab cities in the Ottoman empire reverted back to Arab control when they collapsed instead of having the whole middle east be independent. Russia is also unstable/collapsing, since I gave them all of siberia and 3 cities in Alaska (as they had around this time I believe). They don't seem to actually collapse though as of 1870.

    3. Here's the main problem and the one I really want to fix: The British Empire with any kind of historical realism collapses in 5 turns from start, especially if I take NY/Boston by force. Maybe I can help this by just spawning with those cities in America's hands to avoid that stability hit. I gave them a bunch of cities in NA and Canada, the Falklands, Ghana, Papua, 3 cities in India, 3 in Australia, and 2 in New Zealand. Is this simply too much under any circumstances? Is there anything I can do to make their stability hold up a little better? I don't mind cities declaring independence or civs respawning, but I don't want the Brits collapsing. Would adding more courthouses and jails to their cities help at all?

    2.
     
  6. killerkebab

    killerkebab Chieftain

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    I think you're better off not using a save from 1775, and starting from scratch and then manually editing the year to 1775, if you see what I mean. That way old stability won't affect you since you'll be in a fresh new game.

    I think France's problem may be that they cannot afford the unit upkeep - or the AI thinks it cannot afford it.
     
  7. Baldyr

    Baldyr "Hit It"

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    I think that you could probably make a temporary modmod where you set the stability for each Civ (with a few lines of Python), play one turn and then save the game. This should save the current stability for every Civ. You remove the modified code once you've saved, of course, and you don't need to post it online either, as the settings would be in the save game.

    Another approach would be to enter the World Builder and save the game as a scenario. Instant AD 1775 scenario! All Civs would start with default stability on the first turn, but other stuff would also be nullified, like how many points it takes to get a :gp: or how many :gp: are required for a Golden Age. In short - there would be a lot of Golden Ages!
     
  8. Mazzini

    Mazzini Chieftain

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    Just to clarify, I did make this as a scenario so everybody does start out with (I imagine) neutral stability. The problem is the English simply collapse in 5 turns anyway, since they don't seem to actually be able to hold the entire 18th century british empire. I dunno anything about python and I'm probably not motivated enough to learn just to do this... but is there anyway to bolster british stability using just WB and being python ignorant?

    Killerkebab, why would there be any difference between doing what you suggest and doing what I did, which was make a world builder save at 1775 AD? AFAIK, world builder saves don't save any info about stability whatsoever...
     
  9. Baldyr

    Baldyr "Hit It"

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    Understand this: There is no way for you to correct the stability issue without doing some Python work. If you don't wanna dabble with it, don't bother with this project then.

    Now, if you do wanna proceed, I could probably find an easy enough solution for you. It would involve you editing some Python modules, yes, but I would talk you through it. But I can't do your scenario design for you.

    So, do you feel motivated enough? :rolleyes:
     
  10. killerkebab

    killerkebab Chieftain

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    We can either modify stability.py with a line like "if iPlayer == con.iEngland" then set up our custom stability but that will probably take a lot of coding since we'll have to do it for everyone.

    Or we can use your idea earlier Baldyr, where we set a "iDiscount" depending on the civ and use that to say who gets 32 tile allowances and who gets more :)

    If there's another way, I sure don't know it
     
  11. Baldyr

    Baldyr "Hit It"

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    I can think of at least three different fixes of various complexity, but I haven't tried any of them myself so its anyone's guess what the best solution would be at this point. I could look into this, however, if there is interest.

    What causes the collapse, then? If it really is that predestined (the same 5 turns every turn) it almost sounds like a bug, but other than that a big issue would be that all Civs start with the default civics (the most basic ones). On the first turn most Civs will change these and this causes Anarchy for a number of turns. Anarchy in turn causes instability, and once beyond -40 stability there is a chance of a collapse. The crappy civics might also get logged into the civics stability category, amalgamating the problem.

    Also, England has no positive stability categories logged, like for good expansion (especially with Resettlement) or good economy (especially with Commonwealth). This probably causes the Civ to plumit into instability.

    These issues could be fixed, though. Depending on how good a fix you want the workload also increases. Testing mostly, though.
     
  12. Mazzini

    Mazzini Chieftain

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    I think I've come up with a fix- since there's really only one civ who is causing most of the problems, I think this could work. I have all the civics set to historical parameters, including resettlement on England. So what I could do is make the scenario like it is, but at 1772. I can give england just a bunch of settlers on the right plots instead of cities. Then I load the scenario as England, settle all the settlers manually for the resettlement boost, and then go back to WB and fix up the cities a bit. Then I can simply switch to America upon their spawn and save- this should give england much better stability, right?
     
  13. Mazzini

    Mazzini Chieftain

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    Baldyr, I think the collapse is pretty much caused by the following:

    1: Just too many cities, all founded w/o the needed resettlement bonuses

    2. No other permanent stability boosts having been picked up along the way since we're starting from zero

    3. I capture 3 cities from them as the Americans first turn. I cut this down to 2 and they tend to last a few turns longer.

    The civics thing is not an issue as I set them all manually in the .wbs. Is there any way to lock them in the civics I want for awhile?
     
  14. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    probably could do a callback that when a civ does a revolution it checks the turn and it also checks if it is England, if both are true, it prevents revolution
     
  15. killerkebab

    killerkebab Chieftain

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    The way to support many cities is also economic bonuses - huge empires are powerhouses, with economy stability >100. Since checks are made every 3 turns you don't show any economic improvement - in fact you lose cities in turn 1 so your first economic activity is negative!

    A python edit is needed imo, a stability boost for England.
     
  16. Baldyr

    Baldyr "Hit It"

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    Once you save your scenario again all that stability information is lost, so why bother?

    The way to fix this would probably be to either:

    1. Change the default stability rating from zero to another value. This can be done individually for each Civ and is very easy to do. This basically makes the other scenario files (3000BC and AD600) defunct, however, as they would get the same values on each new game.

    or:

    2. Script an "event" that first checks if the scenario is running from the AD1775 scenario (and not any of the other ones), and then set the stability ratings and parameters for each Civ for the "first" turn of the new scenario. This involves some work but you could use templates so there is no need to learn programming proper.

    Also, civics could be pre-set for all Civs, but I haven't been able to make this stick with my own scenario(s). How did you manage that, by the way? :confused: The way I was gonna fix this issue was something along the lines of the second proposition above.
     
  17. Baldyr

    Baldyr "Hit It"

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    If you post the scenario file I could actually debug this issue for you, so that there would be no need for speculation. The Python Debug Log would actually spell out what caused the collapse. (There are a handful of different kinds of collapses for the AI, and we shouldn't rule out any kind of bug either.)
     
  18. jmerry

    jmerry Chieftain

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    Setting civics should work if the civs have the appropriate techs to keep them; it fails in normal RFC because nobody has civic-enabling techs at the start of the scenario. Civics can be set in Python, of course.
     
  19. Baldyr

    Baldyr "Hit It"

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    My experience, albeit limited, is that the Python in RFC handles all the team specific settings for Civs. In other words; the World Builder save does nothing for diplomatic relations, techs or civics. I've also tried changing stuff like civics in the XML (leaders) but with zero results.

    This is why I have concluded that team settings for RFC must be done in Python. I've been successful with war/peace and open borders myself. Starting techs, starting gold are of course set in RiseAndFall.py and I believe I also know how to set civics, even if I lack an index to work with (and thus am yet to dabble with it).

    edit: Oops! Did I state that civics are team specific? :eek: Of course they are not...
     
  20. Mazzini

    Mazzini Chieftain

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    Success! Well, sort of. I decided to start again rerolling America's start to hopefully get a more historical world with the right civs alive and at least decently powerful. Luckily I rolled a start where Britain already had a very big empire, and they seem to juust be able to absorb the 10 or so cities I added to complete their historical holdings. France also ends up powerful and not ******** like last time. Russia also gaining all of siberia teeters on the brink of collapse but survives to become powerful. The Ottomans are still collapsing a bit early but I think I can tweak that.

    For some reason I can't even save a .wbs file now. It creates a 0 KB file with nothing in it that can't be loaded. It would be fun if I could play this scenario as other civs, but right now I think it plays pretty well as the US at least in the broad strokes. Unfortunately it seems I was wrong about being able to set civics.. I guess I'll just have to live with the AI's both dumb and ahistorical civic choices most of the time. I just need to do a little more tweaking (i.e. making sure stuff like banks/univs/cathedrals are in historical places, maybe some army balancing, and I'd say it's ready to play. I'll upload it here if anyone's interested.
     

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