Historical victories that make no sense

[Eerdna]

kinda funny how far this tread went... from historical victories to egypt dinasties..... go go go medicine XD

 

[MISER SVM]

Now that the mod as-such is not going to change apparently, it would be a moot point to bring up such a minor quibble... But if I would be perfectly honest the 120-unit thing caters more to a Western (if you wish to be all academically fashionable, "Orientalist") image. Standing armies where not as big as commonly assumed during the late imperial age, and while traditional Chinese culture was certainly more warlike than official nationalist historiography likes to depict it, it is true that according to the Confucian ideal, an outward-looking and militaristic approach to policy were not favoured . Two examples: 1. "old-school" Han officials were not happy about the Qing dynasty's bloody expansion into Central Asia, 2. there was a preference, during Song, to recruit mercenaries- soldiers were often recruited from the people who were viewed as the dregs of society, such as bandits. During the horrible bloodlettings of the mid-19th century (e.g. the Taiping rebellion), much of the fighting was not only done by regular banner troops but also spontaneously formed, militia-based armies recruited from the local populace. Needless to say, military mainly functioned as garrisons in peacetime. (before I'm getting TL;DR, wiki Zeng Guofan and all those other blokes, or look up the literature discussing the period)
From a gameplay point of view, a massive army can also be big strain for the economy.


As there is a never lose a city to barbarians ormongols goal (which is of course the "unreal one" among the three), the third goal could hardly verge too much into the irreal. But since some UHV goals are identical or at least very similar anyway (e.g. Greece and Carthage, or Arabia and Khmer), I thought it would not do much harm to have China gain 3 vassals (I know that this is from the Turks) by a certain date- 1700 would be a good guess, as this date sits squarely in the era of the High Qing. As in the Tang and early Ming, this was an age when the Chinese Empire was able to enforce its claim as a universal monarchy (and said date would still be feasible for the 600 AD start)

Unfortunately only RFC 2 civs would strictly speaking, be fitting. As Korea is not included, those would be the Mongols (after the Yuan dynasty fell, several tribes swore fealty to the Ming emperor; the Manchus who later on became emperors of China became their overlords, integrating most of the Mongol lands into their realm while leaving them a certain degree of autonomy), and the Khmer (the vassal state system does of course not reflect the actual Chinese tributary system, which was in most cases a something more symbolical then a real form of direct imperial or colonial rule. Acknowledge that the Son of Heaven is the supreme sovereign of the world, and you will get trade, to simplify this radically). To make the number full, one may need some stretch of imagination; either India, Persia, or Japan would have to make do. There are still some justifications possible, but said three civs really stray a lot into the realm of alternate history...

Finally, I think that this goal hardly makes the Chinese UP obsolete, as you do need some military muscle to make other civs vassalise to you. But then again, this whole thing is best left to mod-modders. (On an unrelated note, are the UHVs solely based on python, or is another form of coding needed? I would appreciate any information on this, thanks a lot. )

At this point this post is getting to an undue length.

PS: I forgot about the so-called Four Great Inventions ( 四大发明 ), which could be used as an alternative: Be the first to discover Paper, Compass, Gunpowder and Printing Press. But the problem is that the latter would be slightly inaccurate. Metal movable type is actually a Korean invention (the Chinese variant, originating from the Song was made from clay) and the printing technology of choice was woodblock printing (invented during the Tang) for a long time. On the first glance a more "primitive" technique, but given economic factors such as the cost of material and last not least the Chinese script, it is certainly understandable that the carved woodblock was so dominant for centuries- I don't think that traditional Chinese printing is well reflected by the technology "Printing Press"; maybe Education or Civil Service might be a better choices. (Nevertheless the scholars of the literati class preferred rarer manuscripts, not only for aesthetic reasons).

 

[Leoreth]

(On an unrelated note, are the UHVs solely based on python, or is another form of coding needed? I would appreciate any information on this, thanks a lot. )

No, they're entirely Python. I would even trust anyone to be able to disable one goal and copy one of another civ.

 

[kettenhunde]

i want germany uhv changed....whats the point of fighting wars with everyone and risking stability to collapse to get a uhv that lets you end the game right before it would end anyways?

 

[killerkebab]

i want germany uhv changed....whats the point of fighting wars with everyone and risking stability to collapse to get a uhv that lets you end the game right before it would end anyways?

Because the idea is to see if you can handle the stability for that long?

 

[Kawzmo191]

Maybe change 2 of the goals for Germany?

1) "Be the first to finish the tech tree" This makes sense, and should stay.

2) Maybe "Be the first to Industrialise" which means be the first to get Steam Power, Assembly Line, and Industrialism. Swap one for Combustion maybe?

3) "Conquer France, Italy, Greece and European Russia by 1900." Pretty self-explanatory. For the sake of gameplay and space for other UHVs, lump the two conquest goals together, minus Britain and Scandinavia, with a little less time to compensate.

 

[SilchasRuin]

i want germany uhv changed....whats the point of fighting wars with everyone and risking stability to collapse to get a uhv that lets you end the game right before it would end anyways?

If you collapse after conquering the requisite areas then you're doing something wrong. Every time I've played as germany my stability goes up with conquests. I usually have all the areas except Russia before the first 1870 deadline.

 

[Norton II]

The Khmer UHV never made much sense to me. I mean, anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of Southeast Asian history knows that the Khmer Empire only had 9,226 culture points in 1450

 

[Leoreth]

This is nonsense.

Historians are still arguing about that

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I view the Khmer UHV as a counter-UHV, i.e. SE Asia's culture has been dominated by the giants next door (China and India) that having more culture than either of them is a worthy challenge.
Then again, I also think that it's just Rhye's way to let us all practise using Jayakarta as a fine example of how to use the whip and micromanage civics and specialists to pump out those great artists.
That is, if God's intent is "scrutable."

 

[G-Max]

How much Saudi oil do you import to America? How much American oil do the Saudis import?

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

There is a reason why Germany invaded Norway but not Sweden. Go read a freaking book about WW2. In WW2 it was sufficient for the Nazis to control Norway, in the game it is not, especially since Norway and Sweden do not exist in the game, there is only a peninsula called Scandinavia and a nation that goes by that name, so get over the fact that you are objecting on an inexistent item.

Bah. I can't even remember why I was debating that.

these wonders were built in Egypt by egyptian people.

...when Egypt was under Greek control, in a city that was founded by Greeks. They were built by the Greek Empire, basically.

2) Maybe "Be the first to Industrialise" which means be the first to get Steam Power, Assembly Line, and Industrialism. Swap one for Combustion maybe?

But the Industrial Revolution started in Britain and the USA...

i want germany uhv changed....whats the point of fighting wars with everyone and risking stability to collapse to get a uhv that lets you end the game right before it would end anyways?

Kicking ass and taking names is fun?

 

[Leoreth]

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

You can infer that from the quote that precedes and the sentence that immediately follows it. I'm not giving courses in reading comprehension here.

But the Industrial Revolution started in Britain period.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Kawzmo191]

But the Industrial Revolution started in Britain and the USA...

Point being? Germany is already something of an anachronistic monolith in the game due to the fact that it never has to go through the internal and external stressors that it did in history. No centuries of being a fragmented union of an "empire", no century of Dual-German struggle. A strong unified Germany as what you get in RFC would've stood a much better chance at maybe keeping up with Britain, or besting it. Who knows.

Not to mention that it falls into the militaristic, efficient Prussian stereotype.

Plus, if you're a player worth any sort of salt, you'll be gunning for the aforementioned techs anyhow.

 

[srpt]

Just wanted to say that in Canada when someone says "First Nations" they are in fact shortening the phrase "Canada's First Nations".

 

[rock_star]

The UHV goals are meant to be more "authentic," not "accurate." They exist to spur you to play a civ in the manner in which that civ's historical aplomb is earned. The Phonecians (Carthaginians) were master seamen, and the Greeks were voracious explorers and map makers, so the circumnavigation goals are authentic to those cultures if not accurate to their actual achievements. India has founded numerous religions, only two of which are in the game. So, to achieve India's real accomplishment of hosting multiple religions, we have to simulate it by founding a majority of the religions that are available to us in the game. No, Christianity was not founded in India, but neither was the Oracle, and you'll be hard pressed to win the UHV without either. Plus, I think Rhye chose some of the goals to keep you playing - a Babylon game can be won in 15-20 minutes. Most of the ancient civs collapsed or were conquered by rivals too early to allow for a long game, so goals like circumnatigating are added to add length to the game and see if you can keep your empire stable and safe from barbarians, and keep your science research high.

The US's oil lust goal is designed to encourage you to follow in the footsteps of America's wars and exploits. In my American UHV game, the Vikings conquered Mexico and held Spain (Havana) and England (Canada) as vassals. The Dutch declared war on me over New York, so I secured the Venezuelan oil after taking Aruba before suing for peace with the Dutch. The Monroe Doctrine meant removing the Vikings from Mexico and its gulf deposit, and my settled Texan, Alaskan, Great Plains and Albertan deposits gave me six sources of oil in total. Since I was at war with the Vikings and their vassal England, a North Sea conquest would have given me my 7th and 8th sources, leaving me to find only two - since they're covered by jungle, the AI never chops and settles the Malaysian or Nigerian oils, and AI culture doesn't often encompass these tiles, either. I could have also taken independent Tunisia and worked culture to reach the Algerian source, or taken the Brazilian oil if I felt like warmongering. However, the intent is to lead you to recreate the adventures of the civ you helm, so I obliged and invaded the Arab world via the Persian gulf to win the game with 12 sources in my control.

Likewise, Germany could simply be required to vassalize Scandinavia to reflect their relationship with Quisling, but their occupation of Norway and Denmark and Open Borders agreement with Sweden and Finland meant a defacto control of Scandinavia, so this is reflected by the UHV goal. (Of course, Iceland is sometimes considered to be part of Scandinavia, but it was occupied by Allies, so semantics factor into this goal as well, depending on the definitions of Nordic vs. Scandinavian. Fun.)

The UHV goals are there to reflect the culture, philosophy or achievements of the civ, regardless of whether or not they truly achieved those goals they aspired to. IE - Ethiopia is the only African nation to not have been colonized by Euro nations (however this only applies to Ethiopia proper - pieces of the Abyssinian empire - Eritrea, Djibouti, Somaliland etc. were chipped away by colonial powers). Their UHV goals address this claim to fame, but extends it to the whole of the continent for challenge's sake.

No, the goals aren't 100% historically accurate, but at the same time, you're playing a game where China and India have a unified national identity from their founding, Rome or Persia build the Great Wall and a Europe that frequently adopts Buddhism as their chosen state religion. Having a goal outside the bounds of historical achievements for the sake of challege or game longevity doesn't screw up history in a game any more than a facist US becoming a vassal to a Democracy loving Stalin.

 

[antostor]

I think Apollo program should be renamed to Voskhod Program. Russians were the first in space and that whole moon-landing thing seems to have been a publicity stunt only.

Aside from that, the "don't lose any cities"-goal is especially silly for Russia. I mean, they would have lost by 1020 AD. They lost cities all the time and weren't really bothered by it. Poles and French conquered Moscow, Germans reached Volga and the Russians still "won".

I would replace it with "be the largest country by territory in 1950", a feat they achieved roughly by that date as the British Empire dissolved. It would prevent Russia from giving up its Siberian colonies and still be more flexible in terms of wars in the west. "Found a colony on America's west coast by 1800" would also be a nice, difficult goal, as Russians are normally totally not into navy.

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Conquest Goals for Greeks would be pretty much a thing of luck, as they can't really produce many more troops by 300 BC. If Babs have Asharitus (and on emperor, they might) Greeks can kiss their UHV goodbye. If they don't have Archers, the goal is ridiculously easy. It's what everybody does anyway.

What can replace circumnavigtion? Maybe a general "found x cities by date y", to simulate the famous hellenic colonization and allow for some creativity? Should be more than what you reasonably want to own. Perhaps limit it with "between latitude x and y", so that they don't go colonize Russia, but have to go with mediterranean, black sea, middle east and persia/afghanistan as is historical.

 

[awesome]

i realize this is an old thread, but i just read through it and was thinking that maybe the aztecs entering the industrial era by 1820 is a reference to the mexican war of independence against spain, which ended in 1821?

 

[trexeric]

I personally think all UHV are what the civ wanted to do or actually did do, giving you a challenge to be them and see if you would be an eligible leader in the time period.

As for circumnavigation for Greece, the Greeks DID know the world was round.

For American Oil, well, us Americans always 'need' oil.

For the Portuguese colonies, they were the third (or fourth, if France counts for you (control Louisiana, the Hudson Bay, and Quebec)) colonial power after England (3 cities on every continent) and Spain (Control all Aztec and Incan territory). See, all colonial powers need SOME type of colonial goal!

 

[awesome]

i think that some of the victory conditions are definitely references. i already mentioned aztecs in 1820, so i'll go with ethiopia next.
there are definitely pagan and animist religions in ethiopia, but other than that, they never really cared much about founding religions. either rhye just felt like making ethiopia that much harder to win as than it already was, or that condition is probably there as a reference to something. according to legend, ethiopia was founded by solomon's son he had with the queen of sheba. also, a bunch of jews supposedly escaped there when their kingdoms got invaded. as someone else mentioned, there's the rastafari religion, but that was founded in jamaica.
the other two conditions are probably references to how ethiopia always been so hard to conquer and there were just too many "never lose a city" conditions already. islam spread to a huge portion of africa, but ethiopia was able to hold back the muslim hordes for the most part. just before 1500, spain started building its empire. the other year when you don't want europeans in sub-saharan africa is around the halfway point of the two wars it had with italy.

tl;dr: i think that ethiopia's historical victory conditions are probably references to menelik i and historically stubborn defense.

 

[Úmarth]

I would replace it with "be the largest country by territory in 1950", a feat they achieved roughly by that date as the British Empire dissolved.

So they didn't really achieve anything except sitting around waiting for us to give up colonies then!