christos200
Never tell me the odds
History Article: Macedonia and Tzar samuil.
Hello, this is my first History Article. It saws how easy is for a nation, fyrom in this case, to steal history of nearby mations and then start propaganda which makes many europeans and emerican to beleive that lies. First of all i have to say some things:
1) In this History Article i have tried not to be very nationalist.
2) I dont have anything against fyrom. I like their country but:
a) They steal greek and bulgarian history.
b) They are used as an examble for other countries that steal history. I could have used another country but i know better the propaganda of fyrom.
Second, i hope everyone enjoys reading my History Article.
Please criticize.
Proluge
At 1991, if i am right, Fyrom gained its indepedence from Yugoslavia.
Fyromian propaganda
The fyromians say that ancient meacedonia and alexander the great werent greeks but had their own nationality.
Thats wrong.
Here are my reasons:
MACEDONIA FAQ
(This is a FAQ about the Greek main positions.)
In 1994, Greece imposed an embargo on products from FYROM (except for food, medicine and humanitarian assistance), on claims that the adoption of a Greek name ("Macedonia") for the country, a Greek symbol (the Vergina Sun/Star) for its flag and certain articles in its constitution, hide irredentist designs against Greece. For the embargo to end, the flag, certain articles in its constitution, and the hostile propaganda have to be changed ("small package"), while the name can be decided in later negotiations.
1) Why does Greece dictate to FYROM its name, symbols and constitution?
Greece does not dictate to FYROM what name or flag to adopt, just to choose any of the million possibilities that are not Greek or offensive to Greeks. Countries have to choose their national symbols based on International norms. (i.e. Can Syria employ the Nazi cross as their flag, if they choose so? Can Cuba change its name to Florida, employ the statue of Liberty as its flag and start propaganda that the Florida state in the USA belongs to Cuba, by virtue of so many Cubans living there?)
Naming a country after a neighboring region is a de facto irredentist strategy aimed at destabilizing the region, and hoping that the country, will absorb the neighboring region.
2) Why does Greece object to the use of the `Vergina Sun' on the FYROM flag?
The Vergina Sun, the emblem of Philip's dynasty, symbolizes the birth of our nation. It was the first time (4th century BCE) that the Greek mainland (city-states and kingdoms) with the same language, culture, and religion were united against the enemies of Asia in one league. At the same time the fractured Greek world grew conscious of its unity. And, in this sense, we have never been apart since then. The `Sun' was excavated in Greece in 1978, and it is sacred to us.
3) Why did Greece impose the embargo?
After talking with the FYROMian Government fruitlessly for 2 years and going nowhere, then and only then did the Greek state implement the partial embargo as last resort to advance the issue.
4) Why do you claim exclusive rights to the symbols of the ancient Macedonians?
We have linguistic, cultural, genealogical, and geographic ties to the ancient Greeks and Macedons. They (FYROM) are mostly Slavs who descended after 600 CE in the region, and have no ties whatsoever (ancient Makedonia was within modern Greece since its inception).
Even after the great expansion by Philip the II and Alexander the Great in the 400s BCE, perhaps even less than 10% of the FYROMian land was part of the `enlarged kingdom'. The reader should realize that the punitive expeditions of the Macedonians in the north, as well as their imperial acquisitions in the Balkans and Asia did not necessarily produce a `wider concept of Macedonia' - a country with boarders extending to India. That would be most simplistic! Pella, the capital of the ancient Makedones, is well within modern Greek borders.
5) What proof do you have that the ancient Macedonians were Greek?
The vast majority of major historians believe that the ancient Macedonians were Greek. Those who still remain skeptical, say that they need more evidence before proclaiming the ancient Macedonians as Greek. But no one says that ancient Macedonians were not Greek.
Recent excavations close to their ancient capital, Aigai, including the discovery of the `tomb of Philip the II', reinforce the Greek identity of the ancient Macedonians categorically.
In any case, all historians admit that by Roman times the ancient Macedonians were fully homogenized with the rest of Greeks, and that Macedonia stopped existing as a separate socio-cultural entity some 600 years before any contact with the first Slavs in the Balkans.
6) How can appropriating Greece's history, be irredentist?
History is the means for laying claims on foreign lands. The Macedonian argument was promoted by the 3rd Commintern (USSR) and their allies in the region just prior to WWII, to create an independent greater Macedonia for social experimentation. Bulgarians have said that Alexander the Great was a Bulgarian while occupying Macedonia (Greek) on behalf of the Germans in WWII.
Tito sent 5,000 Yugoslavs and "Slav-Macedonians" to Greece after WWII to work with their allies in the region to annex Makedonia (Greek) while we were too busy fighting a civil war. These were the same people that now live in FYROM. 3 times in the recent past the same propaganda has been used as justification by different interests (Commintern, Bulgaria, (S)NOF-Yugoslavia) to invade (or try to) Greece. Even today, just when the name and flag were been adopted in independent FYROM, VMRO and Gligorof were talking about reclaiming "their" lands in Greece and Bulgaria.
7) Who populated the lands of modern FYROM in the past?
The ancient people inhabiting the area around Skopje, at the time of the ancient Macedonians, were the Dardanians, and their land was called Dardania. Throughout their modern history, the region now occupied by FYROM was populated mostly by Bulgarians.
The creation of "Macedonia" (FYROM, SROM) was artificial. Ex-Yugoslavs will attest to that. FYROM is comprised of Albanians, Serbs, and Bulgarians and their language is a Bulgarian dialect with a few Serbo-croatian words. Bulgarians will attest to that and understand/speak "Macedonian".
8) What about their claim of a large minority in Greece?
After usurping the name and the flag, surprise! They start claiming that Greeks in Macedonia (Greek) are a FYROM minority. After all we all identify as Macedonians. Thus, we must be the same...
Some people in the Net claim 1 mill minority in Macedonia (Greek). The population of Macedonia (Greek) is 2 mill. I am a Macedonian (Greek) same with other Greeks on this group. We don't want anything to have with FYROM. We are Greek. Finally the recent Euro-Elections revealed only with their cause (therefore propably a FYROM minority) 10,000! Not fantasies of 1 million!
9) Why doesn't the Greek government recognize the "Macedonian" minority?
Greek parents have been sending their children to Macedonian schools for years, expecting them to learn Greek, not Bulgarian. Macedonian people (Greeks) are already a majority in Greece, with Macedonian churches, schools and cultural centers teaching Greek and regional dances and songs.
The Greek government can neither recognize a minority with the same name, as the majority, nor build non-Greek schools and churches with the same name. Greek courts have offered to open cultural centers for their minority, under a different name (than Macedonian). They have refused.
As long as they use the term "Macedonian" to describe their nationality, their minorities in Greece and Bulgaria cannot be recognized.
10) What are Greece's objections with FYROM's constitution?
There are two points of concern:
In their preamble, they define their FYROM state as a departure from the " ...historic decisions of the Anti-Fascist Assembly of the People's Liberation of Macedonia (ASNOM)... ". The problem is that ASNOM had called for the "Macedonians" in Bulgaria and other countries to unite under Tito's rule.
Their language in article 49 is also problematic (too extensive to go into here).
At Greece's request they have added 2 amendements stating that they have no claims on neighbouring countries. Still, that is in contradiction with their preample, and it is to their benefit to rewrite those articles to avoid contradictions and vagueries in their Constitution.
11) Does Greece have any territorial or other claims on FYROM?
In 1993, Serbia's President Milocevic, invited Greece to invade FYROM. Greece declined it.
FYROM is surrounded by claims of Greater Albania, Greater Bulgaria and Greater Serbia. Greece is the only one not interested in FYROM.
It is a poor, barren place with no Hellenic ties or history. Greece has the beach-front property (Aegean), and the economy differential between the two countries would only create problems for the richer one (Greece).
12) Is Greece really afraid of FYROM?
Presently FYROM is too weak to threaten Greece militarily or otherwise. However, considering that:
a) A general draft can raise an army of 700,000 in FYROM;
b) Greece has had to fight several times against similar claims in this century to secure and defend its northern region (Macedonia);
c) the Balkans are currently in a map-changing mode;
d) shifting alliances may change the balance of power in the near future;
The Greek state feels that the "inexplicable" adoption of an irredentist name and flag by FYROM are hostile and provocative acts designed to establish future claims on Greek Macedonia.
These are the main points and we can support them with facts and evidence.
Fyromians also say that tzar samuil was fyromian and not bulgarian.
Thats wrong.
Here is my reasons:
JOHN SKYLITZES, SYNOPSIS HISTORION The Battle of Kleidion, 29 July 1014
The emperor did not relent, but every year he marched into Bulgaria and laid waste and ravaged all before him. Samuel was not able to resist openly, nor to face the emperor in open warfare, so, weakened from all sides, he came down from his lofty lair to fortify the entrance to Bulgaria with ditches and fences
CHRONICLE OF THE PRIEST OF DUKLJA (Ljetopis Popa Dukljanina)
Tugemir succeeded to the kingdom. Having taken a wife he sired a son whom he named Chvalimir. At that time, among the race of Bulgars , a certain Samuel commanded that he be called emperor, fought many battles with the Greeks, and drove them completely from Bulgaria . During his reign the Greeks did not dare approach that land
Michael Psellus Chronographia
39. The people of Bulgaria, after many vicissitudes of fortune and after frequent battles in the past, had become subjects of the Roman Empire . That prince of emperors, the famous Basil, had deliberately attacked their country and destroyed their power. For some time the Bulgarians, being completely exhausted after pitting their strength against the might of the Romans, resigned themselves to defeat, but later they reverted to the old arrogance. There were no immediate signs of open revolt, however, until the appearance among them of a political agitator, when their policy at once became hostile to the Empire.
40. The man who moved them to this folly was, in their opinion, a marvel. He was of their own race, member of a family unworthy of mention, but cunning, and capable of practising any deceit on his compatriots, a fellow called Dolianus. I do not know whether he inherited such a name from his father, or if he gave himself the name for an omen. He knew that the whole nation was set on rebellion against the Romans; indeed, the revolt was merely a project only because no leader had hitherto risen up among them able to carry out their plans. In the first place, therefore, he made himself conspicuous, proved his ability in council, demonstrated his skill in the conduct of war. Then, having won their approval by these qualities, it only remained for him to prove his own noble descent, in order to become the acknowledged leader of the Bulgarians. (It was their custom to recognize as leaders of the nation only men of royal blood.) Knowing this to be the national custom, he proceeded to trace his descent from the famous Samuel and his brother Aaron, who had ruled the whole nation as kings a short time before. He did not claim to be the legitimate heir of these kings, but he either invented or proved that he was a collateral relation. He readily convinced the people with his story, and they raised him on the shield. He was proclaimed king. From that moment Bulgarian designs became manifest, for they seceded openly. The yoke of Roman domination was hurled from their necks and they made a declaration of independence, emphasizing the fact that they took this course of their own free will. Whereupon they engaged in attacks and plundering expeditions on Roman territory
Anna Comnena: The Alexiad, Book VII
Samuel, the last of the Bulgarian dynasty
The miniature After the Siege of Salonica, the army of Tsar Samuel assassinated its mayor Gregorios Taronitos, from the Chronicle of John Skilitzes (The National Library Madrid). The ethnicity of Samuil and his warriors is written right above their heads Boulgaroi.
With all thse i everyone can see the truth about macedonia. There are and other countries with such massive scale propaganda but i chose fyrom.
I hope everyone liked my History Article.
Sources: http://web.mit.edu/hellenic/www/macedonia.html
Hello, this is my first History Article. It saws how easy is for a nation, fyrom in this case, to steal history of nearby mations and then start propaganda which makes many europeans and emerican to beleive that lies. First of all i have to say some things:
1) In this History Article i have tried not to be very nationalist.
2) I dont have anything against fyrom. I like their country but:
a) They steal greek and bulgarian history.
b) They are used as an examble for other countries that steal history. I could have used another country but i know better the propaganda of fyrom.
Second, i hope everyone enjoys reading my History Article.
Please criticize.Proluge
At 1991, if i am right, Fyrom gained its indepedence from Yugoslavia.
Fyromian propaganda
The fyromians say that ancient meacedonia and alexander the great werent greeks but had their own nationality.
Thats wrong.
Here are my reasons:
MACEDONIA FAQ
(This is a FAQ about the Greek main positions.)
In 1994, Greece imposed an embargo on products from FYROM (except for food, medicine and humanitarian assistance), on claims that the adoption of a Greek name ("Macedonia") for the country, a Greek symbol (the Vergina Sun/Star) for its flag and certain articles in its constitution, hide irredentist designs against Greece. For the embargo to end, the flag, certain articles in its constitution, and the hostile propaganda have to be changed ("small package"), while the name can be decided in later negotiations.
1) Why does Greece dictate to FYROM its name, symbols and constitution?
Greece does not dictate to FYROM what name or flag to adopt, just to choose any of the million possibilities that are not Greek or offensive to Greeks. Countries have to choose their national symbols based on International norms. (i.e. Can Syria employ the Nazi cross as their flag, if they choose so? Can Cuba change its name to Florida, employ the statue of Liberty as its flag and start propaganda that the Florida state in the USA belongs to Cuba, by virtue of so many Cubans living there?)
Naming a country after a neighboring region is a de facto irredentist strategy aimed at destabilizing the region, and hoping that the country, will absorb the neighboring region.
2) Why does Greece object to the use of the `Vergina Sun' on the FYROM flag?
The Vergina Sun, the emblem of Philip's dynasty, symbolizes the birth of our nation. It was the first time (4th century BCE) that the Greek mainland (city-states and kingdoms) with the same language, culture, and religion were united against the enemies of Asia in one league. At the same time the fractured Greek world grew conscious of its unity. And, in this sense, we have never been apart since then. The `Sun' was excavated in Greece in 1978, and it is sacred to us.
3) Why did Greece impose the embargo?
After talking with the FYROMian Government fruitlessly for 2 years and going nowhere, then and only then did the Greek state implement the partial embargo as last resort to advance the issue.
4) Why do you claim exclusive rights to the symbols of the ancient Macedonians?
We have linguistic, cultural, genealogical, and geographic ties to the ancient Greeks and Macedons. They (FYROM) are mostly Slavs who descended after 600 CE in the region, and have no ties whatsoever (ancient Makedonia was within modern Greece since its inception).
Even after the great expansion by Philip the II and Alexander the Great in the 400s BCE, perhaps even less than 10% of the FYROMian land was part of the `enlarged kingdom'. The reader should realize that the punitive expeditions of the Macedonians in the north, as well as their imperial acquisitions in the Balkans and Asia did not necessarily produce a `wider concept of Macedonia' - a country with boarders extending to India. That would be most simplistic! Pella, the capital of the ancient Makedones, is well within modern Greek borders.
5) What proof do you have that the ancient Macedonians were Greek?
The vast majority of major historians believe that the ancient Macedonians were Greek. Those who still remain skeptical, say that they need more evidence before proclaiming the ancient Macedonians as Greek. But no one says that ancient Macedonians were not Greek.
Recent excavations close to their ancient capital, Aigai, including the discovery of the `tomb of Philip the II', reinforce the Greek identity of the ancient Macedonians categorically.
In any case, all historians admit that by Roman times the ancient Macedonians were fully homogenized with the rest of Greeks, and that Macedonia stopped existing as a separate socio-cultural entity some 600 years before any contact with the first Slavs in the Balkans.
6) How can appropriating Greece's history, be irredentist?
History is the means for laying claims on foreign lands. The Macedonian argument was promoted by the 3rd Commintern (USSR) and their allies in the region just prior to WWII, to create an independent greater Macedonia for social experimentation. Bulgarians have said that Alexander the Great was a Bulgarian while occupying Macedonia (Greek) on behalf of the Germans in WWII.
Tito sent 5,000 Yugoslavs and "Slav-Macedonians" to Greece after WWII to work with their allies in the region to annex Makedonia (Greek) while we were too busy fighting a civil war. These were the same people that now live in FYROM. 3 times in the recent past the same propaganda has been used as justification by different interests (Commintern, Bulgaria, (S)NOF-Yugoslavia) to invade (or try to) Greece. Even today, just when the name and flag were been adopted in independent FYROM, VMRO and Gligorof were talking about reclaiming "their" lands in Greece and Bulgaria.
7) Who populated the lands of modern FYROM in the past?
The ancient people inhabiting the area around Skopje, at the time of the ancient Macedonians, were the Dardanians, and their land was called Dardania. Throughout their modern history, the region now occupied by FYROM was populated mostly by Bulgarians.
The creation of "Macedonia" (FYROM, SROM) was artificial. Ex-Yugoslavs will attest to that. FYROM is comprised of Albanians, Serbs, and Bulgarians and their language is a Bulgarian dialect with a few Serbo-croatian words. Bulgarians will attest to that and understand/speak "Macedonian".
8) What about their claim of a large minority in Greece?
After usurping the name and the flag, surprise! They start claiming that Greeks in Macedonia (Greek) are a FYROM minority. After all we all identify as Macedonians. Thus, we must be the same...
Some people in the Net claim 1 mill minority in Macedonia (Greek). The population of Macedonia (Greek) is 2 mill. I am a Macedonian (Greek) same with other Greeks on this group. We don't want anything to have with FYROM. We are Greek. Finally the recent Euro-Elections revealed only with their cause (therefore propably a FYROM minority) 10,000! Not fantasies of 1 million!
9) Why doesn't the Greek government recognize the "Macedonian" minority?
Greek parents have been sending their children to Macedonian schools for years, expecting them to learn Greek, not Bulgarian. Macedonian people (Greeks) are already a majority in Greece, with Macedonian churches, schools and cultural centers teaching Greek and regional dances and songs.
The Greek government can neither recognize a minority with the same name, as the majority, nor build non-Greek schools and churches with the same name. Greek courts have offered to open cultural centers for their minority, under a different name (than Macedonian). They have refused.
As long as they use the term "Macedonian" to describe their nationality, their minorities in Greece and Bulgaria cannot be recognized.
10) What are Greece's objections with FYROM's constitution?
There are two points of concern:
In their preamble, they define their FYROM state as a departure from the " ...historic decisions of the Anti-Fascist Assembly of the People's Liberation of Macedonia (ASNOM)... ". The problem is that ASNOM had called for the "Macedonians" in Bulgaria and other countries to unite under Tito's rule.
Their language in article 49 is also problematic (too extensive to go into here).
At Greece's request they have added 2 amendements stating that they have no claims on neighbouring countries. Still, that is in contradiction with their preample, and it is to their benefit to rewrite those articles to avoid contradictions and vagueries in their Constitution.
11) Does Greece have any territorial or other claims on FYROM?
In 1993, Serbia's President Milocevic, invited Greece to invade FYROM. Greece declined it.
FYROM is surrounded by claims of Greater Albania, Greater Bulgaria and Greater Serbia. Greece is the only one not interested in FYROM.
It is a poor, barren place with no Hellenic ties or history. Greece has the beach-front property (Aegean), and the economy differential between the two countries would only create problems for the richer one (Greece).
12) Is Greece really afraid of FYROM?
Presently FYROM is too weak to threaten Greece militarily or otherwise. However, considering that:
a) A general draft can raise an army of 700,000 in FYROM;
b) Greece has had to fight several times against similar claims in this century to secure and defend its northern region (Macedonia);
c) the Balkans are currently in a map-changing mode;
d) shifting alliances may change the balance of power in the near future;
The Greek state feels that the "inexplicable" adoption of an irredentist name and flag by FYROM are hostile and provocative acts designed to establish future claims on Greek Macedonia.
These are the main points and we can support them with facts and evidence.
Fyromians also say that tzar samuil was fyromian and not bulgarian.
Thats wrong.
Here is my reasons:
JOHN SKYLITZES, SYNOPSIS HISTORION The Battle of Kleidion, 29 July 1014
The emperor did not relent, but every year he marched into Bulgaria and laid waste and ravaged all before him. Samuel was not able to resist openly, nor to face the emperor in open warfare, so, weakened from all sides, he came down from his lofty lair to fortify the entrance to Bulgaria with ditches and fences
CHRONICLE OF THE PRIEST OF DUKLJA (Ljetopis Popa Dukljanina)
Tugemir succeeded to the kingdom. Having taken a wife he sired a son whom he named Chvalimir. At that time, among the race of Bulgars , a certain Samuel commanded that he be called emperor, fought many battles with the Greeks, and drove them completely from Bulgaria . During his reign the Greeks did not dare approach that land
Michael Psellus Chronographia
39. The people of Bulgaria, after many vicissitudes of fortune and after frequent battles in the past, had become subjects of the Roman Empire . That prince of emperors, the famous Basil, had deliberately attacked their country and destroyed their power. For some time the Bulgarians, being completely exhausted after pitting their strength against the might of the Romans, resigned themselves to defeat, but later they reverted to the old arrogance. There were no immediate signs of open revolt, however, until the appearance among them of a political agitator, when their policy at once became hostile to the Empire.
40. The man who moved them to this folly was, in their opinion, a marvel. He was of their own race, member of a family unworthy of mention, but cunning, and capable of practising any deceit on his compatriots, a fellow called Dolianus. I do not know whether he inherited such a name from his father, or if he gave himself the name for an omen. He knew that the whole nation was set on rebellion against the Romans; indeed, the revolt was merely a project only because no leader had hitherto risen up among them able to carry out their plans. In the first place, therefore, he made himself conspicuous, proved his ability in council, demonstrated his skill in the conduct of war. Then, having won their approval by these qualities, it only remained for him to prove his own noble descent, in order to become the acknowledged leader of the Bulgarians. (It was their custom to recognize as leaders of the nation only men of royal blood.) Knowing this to be the national custom, he proceeded to trace his descent from the famous Samuel and his brother Aaron, who had ruled the whole nation as kings a short time before. He did not claim to be the legitimate heir of these kings, but he either invented or proved that he was a collateral relation. He readily convinced the people with his story, and they raised him on the shield. He was proclaimed king. From that moment Bulgarian designs became manifest, for they seceded openly. The yoke of Roman domination was hurled from their necks and they made a declaration of independence, emphasizing the fact that they took this course of their own free will. Whereupon they engaged in attacks and plundering expeditions on Roman territory
Anna Comnena: The Alexiad, Book VII
Samuel, the last of the Bulgarian dynasty
The miniature After the Siege of Salonica, the army of Tsar Samuel assassinated its mayor Gregorios Taronitos, from the Chronicle of John Skilitzes (The National Library Madrid). The ethnicity of Samuil and his warriors is written right above their heads Boulgaroi.
With all thse i everyone can see the truth about macedonia. There are and other countries with such massive scale propaganda but i chose fyrom.
I hope everyone liked my History Article.
Sources: http://web.mit.edu/hellenic/www/macedonia.html
