History Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread VIII

Discussion in 'World History' started by Flying Pig, Jan 22, 2017.

  1. Imaus

    Imaus King

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    Both Kursk and Bagration were two, three years after Stalingrad and relied on Western Materiel in Soviet hands. Let's not forget that.

    The Germans will ultimately collapse, but I think they can hold off the Soviets into a negotiated surrender - liberation of Poland, maybe even Czechoslovakia. Britain would never be powerful enough to launch an invasion of France by its lonesome.....
     
  2. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    I assumed that getting involved in European front meant sending troops for invasion of Italy and D-Day.
    Kursk was just several months after Stalingrad.
     
  3. west india man

    west india man Immortal

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    Western materiel was coming regardless: Lend-lease was extended to the USSR in October 1941, a couple months before the German declaration of war on the US
     
  4. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    It is important to remember that the Royal Navy was able to maintain a highly effective blockade of Europe, especially in terms of food. Europe in the 1930s was a net importer of food, especially in fertilizers and feed grain. The Nazis needed to control and pacify the grain fields of Ukraine, and even if American aid to the Soviet Union remained at pre-1942 levels, the Soviet Union was fully capable of contesting control of Ukraine with the Nazis. As I understand it, US aid was largely was logistical and rear-lines support. US aid facilitated the rapid advance of Soviet forces in 1944 and that without American aid, Soviet forces would have been in a slower and smaller advance.
    With the British blockade, eventually Europe is starved into submission. Whether Britain and the Soviets might come to some sort of negotiated agreement with Nazi Germany, I can't begin to guess.
     
  5. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    The Warsaw Pact would have included all of Germany and France.
     
  6. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    Is there any justification in saying the Roman empire fell because of migration? BoJo said at the G20 in Rome:

    When the Roman empire fell, it was largely as a result of uncontrolled immigration. The empire could no longer control its borders, people came in from the east, all over the place, and we went into a dark ages, Europe went into a dark ages that lasted a very long time.​
     
  7. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    Would it surprise you to hear that at best it was a massive oversimplification?
    As @Kyriakos will no doubt say the Roman Empire didn't fall, just the Western half, many of the "invaders" came by invitation originally, frequently as mercenaries, they didn't particularly come from the East, all compass points including West really etc etc.
    Even if you accept his premise that it fell due to being unable to control its borders the question arises as to what had changed about the Empire so it could no longer control its borders.
    It fell because of a stagnant economy, corruption etc. The most valuable provinces remained in the ERE at least until the Arab conquests
     
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  8. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Creator

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    Afaik the byzantine empire also started to be unable to control its borders as a direct result of overextending in the Justinian wars of reconquest of parts of Italy lost to barbarians. No soldiers left to adequately guard the Danube (balkans frontier), resulting in the deluge of slavs.
    Maybe if the western empire could avoid being overrun, the two empires could have continued in some decent form up to today. At least the fourth crusade wouldn't have happened.
     
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  9. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    Not in any meaningful sense. The 'Rome fell due to immigration' narrative in recent years came from Peter Heather, who based on his earlier work on the Goths knows better. The 'barbarians' that set up post-Roman successor states - Goths, Vandals, and Franks - weren't composed of fur-wearing wildmen covered in mud and squatting in bogs. Almost all of them had spent decades inside the Roman Empire, were of partial Roman parentage, or had imperial connections. Even the 'arch barbarians' Geiseric of the Vandals was related to the Theodosian dynasty by marriage. The 'barbarians' became yet another faction playing the political games and participating in the civil wars in the late empire.
    With the collapse of the Theodosian dynasty, there was no agreement on what was needed for a 'legitimate' Emperor, and the Romano-barbarian notables in Gaul, Spain, and North Africa were increasingly realizing Italy was no longer the prize it once was. Without the need for 'Imperial Legitimacy' to justify a right to rule and the declining resources of Italy, there was less and less need for Romano-barbarian notables in outlying regions to fight over Italy.
    Plus, the 'Dark Ages', insofar as a period can be called the 'Dark Ages' started around 600 AD, not the late 400s. Post-Roman state in France, Spain, and Italy worked along almost the same lines as the late Roman state, maintaining an urban economy, independent royal military power, and central administration. It was only after Justinian's wars in the west that saw the post-Roman states break apart into a 'dark age'. Britain may have been an exception to this, but we are limited by the terrible state of surviving writings from that period.

    That Rome did not re-form, as after the 'Crisis of the Third Century', was due to the 'barbarians', but somehow I doubt BoJo is that familiar with the historiography of the late Roman Empire to be making a nuanced point about ethnic and political identity in late antiquity.
     
  10. r16

    r16 not deity

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    it was basically impossible for America not to fight Germany after Pearl Harbour considering they were already fighting . One could even argue the time table wouldn't change much . While American forces in the Atlantic were an immense host , the heavies were mostly concentrated in the Pasific anyhow ... which possibly lacked the infrastructure for faster operations . And no landing in Sicily or similar Churchillian adventures might have concentrated the Allied power on UK for a similar D-Day operation ... And the Germans would end up nuked , in all probability .
     
  11. Imaus

    Imaus King

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    JFC Bojo is saying that?

    They really should know better. Especially as he and everyone else in that room are the literal descendants of those Barbarians (in addition to some 'native' Romans and 'native' Indigs by this point, it's all mixed).

    Rome [Western] was capable of projecting force and compliance to the federated tribes it let in, hemming them up or even integrating them (though far more rarely and given more to individual men of status than entire peoples). Up until nearly the end, Rome could and did come around and say 'you listen to us, you...'. What broke Rome was the lack of political power and consensus, centuries of intercine strife.... Not aided by economic failings, environmental changes, sociopolitical struggles.

    Rome gave up territories that weren't really critical to it, too, (which back then in the West was a surprising amount) pushing the Suevi to the literal edge of the world, the Visigoths got a corner of France, the Franks got a bit along the Rhine, they refused to give the Goths nearly anything and the Vandals ditto, thus they carved bits and pieces out, but up until almost the very end, Rome maintained direct control over much of Spain, France, and Italy.

    The dogwhistle that the oh-so-scary East is gonna come and knock Europe to dark ages is...yikes.
     
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  12. Absolution

    Absolution King

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    How did Caesar view the future of the republic?
    Did he think that it would continue as usual after his death?
     
  13. haroon

    haroon Deity

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    I doubt if these concerns were flashing through his mind when he got stabbed repetitively.
     
  14. Absolution

    Absolution King

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    But generally during his reign as dictator
     
  15. r16

    r16 not deity

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    he was thinking of a dynasty of his own . This causing the love of Democracy and Freedoms of Man in those who killed him .
     
  16. Buster's Uncle

    Buster's Uncle AC2 Co-Owner

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    I'd guess that, as a young Marian who survived Sulla, he didn't much believe in the viability of the republic anyway - and why let Pompey have it?
     
  17. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    When did WW1 start being called a world war? What about WW2?
     
  18. Gelion

    Gelion Captain

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    Until World War II it was known as the "Great War" or "the World War". WW2 was initially known as the German-Polish war.

    I found this article interesting.
     
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  19. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    So WW1 was 1927 (Winston Churchill), and WW2 was 1919 (Manchester Guardian). Who would have thought.
     
  20. Gelion

    Gelion Captain

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    I don't think the answers are exclusive (there may be other variants not discussed in the article that we don't know about).
     
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