Hitler vs Stalin

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Barney's_Soul, Oct 24, 2006.

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Should both Stalin and Hitler be in Warlords?

  1. Yes, they both should have been included.

    114 vote(s)
    63.3%
  2. Only Stalin should have been included.

    34 vote(s)
    18.9%
  3. Only Hitler should have been included.

    1 vote(s)
    0.6%
  4. Neither should be in Warlords.

    31 vote(s)
    17.2%
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  1. Barney's_Soul

    Barney's_Soul Warlord

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    Ever wonder why Stalin made it into CivIV and Hitler didn't? Stalin was a great leader that's why!

    Stalin did 2 primary things to Russia:

    A) In less then 30 years he turned Russia from a agriculterial society to an industrial powerhouse - Russia would be near ruin if not for him modernizing Russia

    B) He fixed the problem of overpopulation in Russia - if Stalin didn't purge out these peasents and curropt officals - Russia would be so overpopulated and more people would be starving to death today.

    Hitler killed many people too BUT:
    Germany was not better off after Hitler died, unlike with Stalin, Hitler almost brought Germany to the brink of destruction.

    Sure, the Soviet Union was struggleing in the short-term during the 5 Year Plans and Great Purges - but the long-term benifits outweigh the short ones.
     
  2. Revolutionary

    Revolutionary Anarchy!

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    :rotfl:

    I'm sorry but overpopulation problem? :lol:
     
  3. General Failure

    General Failure Warlord

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    This is just so wrong on so many levels that it is hard to get my mind around it. So you are saying that in order to "fix" overpopulation, it's okay to just deport and kill people?

    China is struggling with overpopulation. Should the Chinese government just round up peasants and shoot them? Or why stop there? If the cities get a bit crowded, just round up people in them and deport them to some remote area and leave them to their own devices. That would solve that problem, wouldn't it?

    There's just no way to know what would have happened if Stalin hadn't been there. Maybe people in Russia would have been starving to death, but maybe not. But saying that Stalin was a great leader, because he killed millions...that's just sick!

    General Failure
     
  4. Barney's_Soul

    Barney's_Soul Warlord

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    My god, I'm not saying its right to kill people - BUT I'm trying to say that unintenilly Stalin did benifit Russia in the long run. I'm not saying he's good for killing people - did I say Hitler was good? No I didn't, but Stalin DID modernize Russia.

    Man some people are ignorent.
     
  5. [EC]Eternal

    [EC]Eternal Chieftain

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    shoudl have included both they both murder thousands if not millions but they both had good points... the way hitler got rid of unemployment or the way stalin got russia through the german assualt and then they both have really bad points ......... so y include one if u dont the other both bad people..
     
  6. General Failure

    General Failure Warlord

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    If he did that unintentionally, how does that make him a great leader? Sounds like the opposite of a great leader to me, if the long term benefit happens without his intention.

    No, you didn't say Hitler was good, but you said that Stalin did a good thing by killing millions, because it helped his country, even if that was unintentional.

    Before you call me ignorant, I suggest you pick up a history book and read up on Stalin and his regime. Pay particular attention to the effects of his policy. Yes, he industrialized Russia. (By the way...it should be Soviet Union). But in doing so, he crippled the countries agriculture, he purged all experienced officers from his army, making it very uneffective. His policy caused massive famines, killing many people. He moved the population of entire regions to create his collective agriculture, which failed miserably.

    If you believe Stalin's rethoric that the officials being purged, were corrupt, you really have no idea about what happened in the Soviet Union during the purges. The Soviet Union was also not overpopulated when Stalin was in power.

    General Failure
     
  7. Thedrin

    Thedrin Deity

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    I just posted this in the Hitler poll thread.

    There is a big difference between a great humanitarian and a great leader. Russia - as a political entity - benefited greatly from Stalin's rule. That's reason enough for him to be in the game in my book.
     
  8. wioneo

    wioneo King

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    The ONLY reason that Hitler is not in this game is because of the complaints and lawsuits that Firaxis would have to deal with. Look at how many people are indirectly complaining about him now, and he hasn't even been added...yet.
     
  9. darkman-perth-a

    darkman-perth-a Chieftain

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    Hitler will never make it due to it being too political. Stalin didn't gt as bad a rep, becuase he was not beaten by the west.

    The winners write history.
     
  10. asabahi

    asabahi Warlord

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    I think that they cannot sell the game in Europe with Hitler included. Business decision.
     
  11. QwertyKeyboard

    QwertyKeyboard Chieftain

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    You think Hitler was a bad leader? What about Montezuma? Hitler certinly did a better job the Montezuma. I don't live in Europe but I simply can't see how adding Hitler would be susicide to European sales. Can anyone elaborate as to why simply putting Hitler in the game would be offensive?
     
  12. lasdlt

    lasdlt Chieftain

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    I don't think just adding Hitler or Stalin in the game would have opened Firaxis up to any lawsuits. At least, any reasonable lawsuits. Look at games like DoD where you can play as an Axis soldier and kill the Allies. Or, other RTS games where you can build up an army as the Axis and defeat the Allies.

    I don't think they should have been added. Or, rather, I don't think it matters. What's the point of putting two historical leaders in a game already full of them? Sure, it would add to the complexity and replayability of the game, but would it really affect it that much? Just because two leaders of questionable leadership capability aren't in the game doesn't mean we all have to jump on Firaxis demanding they release a patch including them. There are way too many leaders in history to add every one. Plus, what's the deal with the obsession of World War Two leaders? What about such great American leaders as Theodore Roosevelt? Or Maragaret Thatcher?
     
  13. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    Actually, Montezuma I was a decent leader, and I assumed that was the one in Warlords. You are probably thinking of Montezuma II that got beaten by the Spanish. :)

    I belive Hitler is not in the game because, due to the de-nazification laws, the game would be illegal in Germany. No such laws exist in Russia, and therefore, Stalin is fair game. I find it funny so much is focused on Stalin here when Chairman Mao was equally horrible. If not more so...I think the Chinese death count due to Mao was upwards of 96 million.

    And, you can argue that Hitler industrialized Germany as well...look at Germany in the 1920's...pretty crappy. Look at Germany in the late 1930's...military superpower.



    The fact is, I think we have enough WW2 leaders. I can't believe somebody in another thread posted Tojo as a potential second Japanese leader when Meiji is clearly the modern Japanese choice...guys, there are more leaders than WW2 leaders!
     
  14. sirford

    sirford Title indicates royalty

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    just keep reading and repeating that, then you'll understand why.
     
  15. Ball Lightning

    Ball Lightning www.sporedum.net

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  16. sirford

    sirford Title indicates royalty

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    I know for a fact that anything bearing the NAZI emblem is 99.999% likely to be blacklisted in germany. it's a scar on their country that they don't want ever brought up.
     
  17. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    No, you are immature and ignorant. Apart from winning WWII (and that too can be subject to debate), is there any conclusive proof that the legacy of Stalin really benefited the Russian people? Do you know for sure what would've happened instead if Stalin wasn't there? Did industrialisation really require his policies to be implemented? And one of his major policies, collectivisation, was agricultural and was in fact counter-productive such that it set the Russian economy back.

    He was great because he was influential. Insisting that he was great because he benefited Russia in the long run makes you a fool.
     
  18. darkman-perth-a

    darkman-perth-a Chieftain

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    I do not believe it needed to be quoted that many times, for a simple typo.
     
  19. sirford

    sirford Title indicates royalty

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    then you mistake why i quoted it, many times.
     
  20. The Lardossen

    The Lardossen Warlord

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    Somebody has been using teh whip for too long.....
     
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