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Hitler vs Stalin

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Barney's_Soul, Oct 24, 2006.

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Should both Stalin and Hitler be in Warlords?

  1. Yes, they both should have been included.

    114 vote(s)
    63.3%
  2. Only Stalin should have been included.

    34 vote(s)
    18.9%
  3. Only Hitler should have been included.

    1 vote(s)
    0.6%
  4. Neither should be in Warlords.

    31 vote(s)
    17.2%
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  1. Kristian95

    Kristian95 Dr. Minion

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    Firstly Germany was highly industrialized way before Hitler!! The most well known German armaments company, Krupps, existed since sometime in the mid 1800's!! Also prior to WWI Germany was already second in production globally, only surpassed by the USA!
    Sure German economy and production was down in the 1920'ies, but that was mostly due to the treaty of Versailles and all it encompassed!

    As for even talking about adding Tojo as a leader in Civ, that, I find, is as offensive as talking about adding Hitler. Both were war criminals, both perpetrated crimes against humanity. In the west we simply chose to ignore the Japanese war crimes as we (i.e. mainly the USA) wanted a strong Japan as a shield from Communist China. Check up on the history of war crimes committed by the Japanese during WWII (and in the 1930'ies as well) and you will see that they did what they could to measure with Hitler et al!
     
  2. darkman-perth-a

    darkman-perth-a Chieftain

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    The great depression also lended a hand i stifling economies of the time also.
     
  3. darkman-perth-a

    darkman-perth-a Chieftain

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    Perhapse, if that comment made sense to me, I could have given you a better answer.

    But, as I still have no idea why on earth you would want to quote it that many times, i'll just say I'm sorry if I offended you by typing a word incorrectly, but rest assured, I shall endeavour never to repeat my follies again.
     
  4. Tulx

    Tulx Impossible Creature

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    You can not change the tides of history. They were both people murders and nobody expext God can change it. Stalin and Hitler were very importnant leaders in history and they both should be in Civ. How you can disable somebody from Civ only because he made good or bad things.

    I know my English is weak but I am sure that you understand what am I trying to say.

    Tulx
     
  5. Crimso

    Crimso ...aaaaaagh!

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    There is a lot of debate, but historians agree that the bare-minumum number of people whose deaths Stalin is repsonsible for lies around ten million. Ten million people. Next time you pull an assertion out of your ass, wiegh it against the mile-high pile of starved and shot to death.
     
  6. holy king

    holy king Deity

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    you left out the "not another hitler thread" option....
     
  7. Charles 22

    Charles 22 King

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    You don't have to put nazi armbands on Hitler.
     
  8. Charles 22

    Charles 22 King

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    Check out Stalin's record too. Not only did he have his own people in the Ukraine and elsewhere starved to death, or executed (not to mention purging his own military) but also had war crimes against his enemies. The killing of the Polish army formations in some forest (Katryn?) which they blamed on the Germans, but they also dished out very harsh treatment to many that they captured, including the returning German gulag survivors amounting to like 3%. The only reason he was never branded as a war criminal was not only because he was on the allies side, but those who would accuse him would have to deal with the embarassment of having no way to conquer his nation and take him captive. I also reason it was the same reason that Stalin could and did invade Poland alongside Hitler, and funny how nobody declared war on him. I think they just pretended he didn't have a pact with Hitler to take over many eastern european countries, not only just Poland.
     
  9. Charles 22

    Charles 22 King

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    Yes, Genghis Khan was a real sweetheart too (somebody already mentioned Mao)!:lol:
     
  10. Kristian95

    Kristian95 Dr. Minion

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    Well, not really 'cause the great depression started with the wall street crash in 1929 ;)
     
  11. Kristian95

    Kristian95 Dr. Minion

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    I totally agree... I only mentioned Japan 'cause for some reason their share of atrocities is pretty much unknown to most westerners, even more so than Stalin's ditto's....

    All in all, I think people who committed war crimes should not be included in the game.... I know many of the ancient leaders might have committed crimes as well, but I am quite sure that the warcrimes of the 20th century were on an unprecedented scale....

    I think people should remember the victims, the few who survived and their relatives before talking a lot of b***sh*t regarding how much good these leaders did...

    On my (long) list of people I would prefer never to see in Civ are:

    Hitler et al
    Stalin
    Hirohito
    Tojo
    Pol Pot
    George W. Bush
    Idi Amin
    Mao
    Pinochet
    ...
    ...
    ...

    I know I forgot some more here.... but I think you get my point
     
  12. IdiotWind

    IdiotWind Chieftain

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    Comment A) is pure Stalinist cant, fair enough, didn't know there were any of you guys left: anyone looking at the state of modern russia can see that it IS in a state of near ruin, thanks in no small part to the legacy of Stalin and the 30+ years of ossified state socialist rule after his demise. Stalin's policy of rapid industrialisation "worked" (in the sense that industrialisation was achieved, but at huge social cost) short term only, long term it has been a total disaster. Which leads me on to
    Comment B) which is wrong on so many levels it took my breath away. There was, and never would have been, an overpopulation problem in Russia. This is a country that had just come out of a world war, a revolution, and a civil war. Stalin, with his terror-famine of agricultural collectivization, CAUSED a population problem, the opposite sort, the sort where people are reduced to eating their own children.

    However, i can see why they put him in and left Hitler out. Stalin's inclusion is justified (esp in a Warlord add on pack) by the fact that he is one of the victors of WWII (this is why they put in churchill even though england already has two leaders). WWII COULD NOT have been won without Russia, of which Stalin was the leader at the time. Hitler LOST WWII, which makes his inclusion much less justifiable. And why would firaxis want to open up such a potential can of worms over something as minor (in terms of the game) as leader identities? If Hitler had won WWII it would be a different matter of course (and we'd be having this discussion in german, as my old headmaster liked to remark ;) )
     
  13. darkman-perth-a

    darkman-perth-a Chieftain

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    The roaring economy of the 20's and the subsequent depression after the Wall St crash in 1929, caused untold misery in Germany, Hitler took advantage and promised the people that he would deliver Germany out of depression and re-arm and yada yada

    My bad..
     
  14. seady

    seady Prince

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    I dunno, so long as you roleply him properly, i think he hadds great fun. Make him random, included to betray his friend and open a second front on russia for no apparent reason. I f the AI is playing, just get it to random things a lot. Then when hitler starts losing have speer start ravaging all the resources and killing off their own citizens so, as hitler wanted, they would win nothing but a dead land.

    There scope for an improvement hostile terrains damages units, eg snow. desert, unless that have special equip and even then, Random weather interference would be good; have the fleet you were going to use to enforce pax romana in britain sink to the bottom of the channel is very embarassing!
     
  15. IdiotWind

    IdiotWind Chieftain

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    It's the roleplay aspect (i.e. player controlled) that makes hitler problematic. As an AI it's not so bad -who wouldn't want to have a go at kicking hitler's ass?- but if the developers let you "be" hitler then they are treading on dangerous ground (and they know it)

    For example, pop whipping as Hitler has some especially queasy connotations...
     
  16. paleman

    paleman Chieftain

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    It's frankly stalinist to not include a banana option in a hitler poll.

    Was Hitler a great leader? Or is he rather just a giant excuse for amateur historians to pretend they know squat about the world and the nature of evil? You be the judge!!
     
  17. General Failure

    General Failure Warlord

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    Yes, and of course this is the main reason (I assume) for Firaxis not to include him in the game. And I am happy about that. If nothing else, the heated debate on this forum shows why Hitler should not be in Civ.
    Like I said in the other thread: Do we want Firaxis embroiled in legal problems, or do we want them to concentrate on expanding Civ, making Civ 5, etc? I think the answer to that one is obvious.

    General Failure
     
  18. gdgrimm

    gdgrimm Prince

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    :lol: Perfectly in context game reference. :lol:
     
  19. lasdlt

    lasdlt Chieftain

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    Just mentioning Hitler is not in violation of those laws. Hearts of Iron 2 by Paradox Interactive, a WWII grand strategy game, specifically mentioned dropping the Swastika out of the game to comply with those such laws, but Hitler is still center stage in Germany.
     
  20. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    Not true; after September 1940 the outcome couldn't have been any other way. Germany didn't have the kind of power projection it needed to take down Britain. Hell, even Louis XIV came closer when he invaded Ireland.
    Napoleon LOST the Napoleonic Wars, which caused as much proportional damage to Europe as did the Second World War. He's in the game.
    Actually, we'd probably not be using the Internet, and almost none of us would know anyone else on OTL CFC. (Except maybe the Germans who have accounts, and of course the Japanese and maybe Italians.)
     
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