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HOF Cheese Annex (unofficial poll)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Denniz, May 27, 2007.

?

Is Quattromasters to too cheesy?

Poll closed Jun 26, 2007.
  1. I like things they way they are.

    4 vote(s)
    17.4%
  2. Exclude Duel Size Maps and only allow ancient starts for QM.

    7 vote(s)
    30.4%
  3. I have a different idea.

    12 vote(s)
    52.2%
  1. Misotu

    Misotu King

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    Well, that would certainly be one way of tackling it, if it were a problem. But, to be honest, I'd rather Gauntlets than loads of Future Space games. Right now, that's the only way of getting a sensible score ... At least Gauntlets are competitive and varied!
     
  2. sanabas

    sanabas Psycho Bunny Hall of Fame Staff

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    Lots of my QM games are cheesy from memory. I was planning on progressively replacing them with non cheesy games, and improving my overall score. Then I didn't play a game of Civ for a while as I was distracted by other things. Now I have the new expansion, and I'm planning on playing a fair bit, and I'd rather use a HOF mod, and submit what I do play. Once I remember how to play properly I might even go back to trying to improve my score.

    According to the OP, there was some competition for how low you could make your rank? I don't see that as worth striving for, as it doesn't require much skill. I don't see it as devaluing anything else, because to have a good QM score still takes plenty of skill.

    It is easy to be a QM, because it is easy to beat Deity on a duel map. That might devalue QM a bit. But since mostly the HOF isn't about showing off how good you are, but is about improving your own game, helping improve others' games, and feeling like you've achieved a bit with your play, I don't think it's a real problem. If you think only non duel games make for a QM, no worries, you can do all non duel games for it. I'm certainly planning on having that long term. I'll feel I've achieved far more when I have large & huge wins on all the levels than I did by getting to be a QM.

    I'd have no problem with duel maps being excluded from QM, I'd have no problem with not being a QM anymore if they were. But doing that wouldn't stop there being formulaic ways to win higher levels than you're comfortable with. It would just remove the main one.
     
  3. Misotu

    Misotu King

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    With the exception of the duel conquest on deity, it really doesn't matter. Given that larger maps get a huge bonus ... why play duel if you can play a larger map?

    For those of us who ... ahem :blush: are rubbish at warfare, the duel conquest with quechas option is a useful filip
     
  4. IglooDude

    IglooDude Enforcing Rule 34 Retired Moderator Supporter

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    And for those of us who are rubbish at Emperor and above, ditto.

    Having actually taken a look and decided to direct my HoF entries toward Quattromaster requirements, I feel qualified to offer an opinion here now, which is - Quattromaster status seems to indicate a solid familiarity with all Civ4 game aspects, not necessarily just an ability to comprehensively beat the AI at all skill levels. Thus, I wouldn't seek to de-cheese it via taking away the duel Quecha rushes as you'd pretty much exclude anyone who already has a tough time winning on Prince level (like, for example, me). I would have suggested ranking Quattromasters if you didn't already, though - within its ranks there's a solid competition going on, and if the Nobles are struggling to get above the bottom slot and the Deities are knocking each other off the top of the hill, more fun for all.

    I guess how to adjust Quattromaster to accomodate BtS is the next question...
     
  5. IglooDude

    IglooDude Enforcing Rule 34 Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Sorry for the :bump: (though might as well, since Methos referenced this thread) but it occurred to me - on the quecha-rush duel map cheese 'issue', might it be easier and less disruptive to simply disallow single-opponent games? I.e., change the rules on the number of opponents on duel maps from min one max two to min two max two? Or can you quecha-rush two civs as readily as one?
     
  6. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

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    You can rush 2 just as fast as 1. It involvers a little more luck but it's doable.
     
  7. Shadondriel

    Shadondriel Freak

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    Why not change the QM a little bit. It could be a rule that only games with a rank in HoF can be used for QM, that would kick out all cheesies. :p
    (there would be still more than 10000 games eligible, but it just won't be THAT easy to submit really unspectacular games for 50 Qscore)
     
  8. Denniz

    Denniz Where's my breakfast? Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    It would probably cut out most but with so many tables there is still room for a lot of cheesy games.
     
  9. Shadondriel

    Shadondriel Freak

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    At least that'll fill the tables then :D (and it will force people to submit games that actually fill a spot or kick somebody else out)

    Edit: A filled league of nations would require 66 ranked games, so far only 15 players have that many games in the HoF
     
  10. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

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    Some empty spots aren't THAT easy, if you ask me...

    I'm currently looking through the tables.
    I've found 11 empty spots so far :
    Huge deity conquest, for quick normal and epic speeds.
    Huge deity cultural for normal and epic speeds
    Huge deity diplo normal speed
    Huge deity domination for quick and normal speeds
    Huge deity time for quick, normal and epic speeds (note that marathon has 1, thanks to wastintime)
    Of course huge deity religious and space colony are empty so far too.

    then again, there is still room at settler level, duel size...
     
  11. Shadondriel

    Shadondriel Freak

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    Sorry for not clarifying what I meant with "filling". Right now there are some spots that have little or no competition at all.

    http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/ind...ge&incBeta=0&speed=Epic&expansion=0&submit=Go
    like these for example

    While other spots such as dual maps on marathon are stuffed with submissions.
    http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/quattromasters.php?show=civ&pubID=-1&dsply=0
    an extreme lot of games here are cheesy games (those on dual map without even the chance of a ranking for conquest victory) All of these are even worth 20+ points, while something like a 900 BC huge settler domination is only worth 10 points... (though it is a really awesome achievement imho)

    Making only ranked games count would force everybody to submit games that are at least worth something. I'd really love to see lots of competition there. (it would either require to fill a spot with less than 10 games or kick somebody else's butt)

    P. S. I'll try to submit actively again after next update, Hindi is almost the only one submitting in most categories :-S (though I don't think I can beat that guy)
     
  12. Conquistador 63

    Conquistador 63 Gypsy King

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    Each person has its own objectives. This suggestion, while valid, is a disincentive to those who intend to fill their QM slots with Gauntlet games. Those will have often a high # of submissions with the same settings, so there is a higher chance one won't make it a top-ten score, even if the settings are obviously not cheesy.

    In any event, I plan to continue submitting almost only gauntlet games for HoF. The discussions and opportunity to compare strategies and learn in that competition are just too much fun to pass up.

    If this strategy prevents me from ever becoming a QM, I'm fine with that. :)
     
  13. Denniz

    Denniz Where's my breakfast? Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    The elite QM will not require games to be on the "Official" tables.

    The quality aspect is going to come from eliminating certain easy wins. Right now that means: no Inca, no Duel maps, and only Ancient starts.

    There are some other twists that address the "I made QM, now what?" factor.
     
  14. Thrallia

    Thrallia Prodigal Staffer GOTM Staff

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    would you consider me as having fallen to that factor? I haven't submitted a single game since making QM :crazyeye:
     
  15. Denniz

    Denniz Where's my breakfast? Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Yeap. QScore is just too hard to improve significantly and advancing from 13th to 12th isn't that exciting a long term goal. We are hoping give people something strive for. :)
     
  16. IglooDude

    IglooDude Enforcing Rule 34 Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Ruhroh... That means for some of us that winning a Deity game is going to become a much higher hurdle... :undecide:
     
  17. jesusin

    jesusin Ant GOTM Staff

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    Woohoo, only 33 leaders needed.

    ...Wait a second, do you mean I have to play a Time Victory starting on 4000BC? I can't see that happening anytime soon.
     
  18. Methos

    Methos HoF Quattromaster Super Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    There's always G-Major 20. :mischief:
     
  19. jesusin

    jesusin Ant GOTM Staff

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    :)

    This month's Gauntlets are too much time consuming for my liking. But, hey!, you can't please everyone. Keep up the good work, guys.
     
  20. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

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    :lol: There goes my quechua rush on deity.

    The funny thing is, I think most of the deity table is filled with HC. Except maybe the culture victories. It's going to be pretty challenging to get deity level wins without HC. Maybe a new gauntlet to kick off the elite QM?

    edit:

    @jesusin: The current minor is relatively painless compared to the major. The minor took about 3-4 hours of in-game clock time.
     

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