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HOF III January '12 Gauntlet

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Tone, Jan 17, 2012.

  1. Tone

    Tone Deity Hall of Fame Staff

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    Time to get the first Gauntlet for 2012 underway. Naok and Spoonwood would like to try a Deity Space game so...

    Level: Deity
    Mapsize: Standard
    Victory Condition: Spaceship

    As usual you have two months to play if you wish to participate. Please submit your games by March 15th 2012. Good luck to all competitors.
     
  2. Naok

    Naok Chieftain

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    As usual I will start with some questions.

    Civ : Sumeria seems the best to me .... any other interesting options ?
    Against : 7 scientific civs ?
    Barbarians : no I guess ?

    Are the pyramids a must ? Spoonwood, I checked your 1240AD win you hadnt it and what about your 1200AD win ?
     
  3. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Persia and the Ottomans, as well as Greece and Korea. Maybe even Babylon, as a quick revolt to Democracy might just work well in this. 7 scientific tribes, no barbs or sedentary barbs. Pyramids aren't a must, and I didn't have it in either game. This thread might help.
     
  4. Naok

    Naok Chieftain

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    I started one game yesterday with Sumeria .... just to see how techs path is going on in Deity. I though going for The Wheel, then trade it for Alphabet and then go for Writing .... I was still 15 turns from The Wheel when I saw that the Byzantins already had it :wallbash:

    I dont really know what strategy I should do with the tech path. The AIs are very fast.

    No Aphabet Civs could work ?
    Republic slingshot works on Deity ?
    Oh and I forgot : you play on Pangea 60% dont you ?
     
  5. Tone

    Tone Deity Hall of Fame Staff

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    I'd avoid researching military techs. They all head for BW, IW, wheel and HBR early on. They tend to avoid techs that offer no immediate benefit, so they will avoid Alpha for a fair time as it is high value.

    I'd consider no Alpha civs or be one myself. That's not to say that you can't get the Republic ss on deity any other way but it should make it easier.
     
  6. Lord Emsworth

    Lord Emsworth Emperor

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    I would play Russia with sedetary barbarians on. Getting a free settler is always a good thing. And since this is deity there is nothing in principle that keeps you from getting more. I wouldn't expect much tech wise though.

    The research strategy should be to go for Writing as soon as possible. And at full speed of course. A lot of the AI civs don't care for researching it at all. Korea and Germany for example always seem to go for Wheel, Iron Working; Sumeria and the Ottomans are very keen on the lower tech branch.

    The tricky part is to aquire Alphabet. But with enough civs that have it as their starting tech (Korea, Byzantines etc) that should be doable via trading.

    After Writing, come Code of Laws and Philosophy --> The Republic while not trading away Writing.
     
  7. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Whenever I've done this with Sumeria I've played with tribes with Alphabet and pretty much gone Alphabet-Writing-Literature and built the Great Library. You can get the slingshot, though probably not that way. And yes, 60% pangea, with a warm, flat map.

    Is that would, or will play?
     
  8. Lord Emsworth

    Lord Emsworth Emperor

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    I did manage to get the slingshot the way I outlined, but that was on tiny deity maps. Whether it works on standard ... hmmmm. Maybe it is not such a bad idea to only set 5 or 6 opponents?

    If I try, I'll try it to go (Alphabet) -> Writing -> CoL -> Phil with Russia.
     
  9. Naok

    Naok Chieftain

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    I tried several starts with Sumeria and with Greeks. It brought a lot of questions regarding my starting skills. Sorry if it is too long, but I will be very thankful with answers. I am kind of new at Deity level.

    Building order
    I went : warrior, worker, warrior, settler, then with Sumeria granary, settler, ... ; and with Greek settler, ... until I can trade for Pottery (which means when I finished Writing and there are still few civs without Alphabet I can tard with). Is this ok ? I am not sure I have enough warriors to explore ? And I am not sure I should build granary asap and then workers and settlers ?

    With the workers, I always go mine or irrigate first and then road. I wonder if in such game (i.e. spaceship) I should go road and then mine or irrigate to get more money sooner for faster research ?

    Tech path
    With Greek, I went Writing, Philo and Literature as freebie. Then trade for CoL and then tried to research the Rep myself. I think I really need the Great Library for such game. Otherwise I dont fill comfortable.
    With Sumeria, I went CB (I didnt play with Babylon), then tried to trade Alphabet. It works only once out of 12 games, is this "normal" ? And I had to trade Pottery, CB, 3gtp and 15 g for it. I found that it killed my research ability to give 3 gtp. Again is this "normal" or how can I do better ? Then I went Writing (I didnt found it as first civ) and directly Literature. Lord Emsworth, how do you do for the Rep slingshot ? It seems impossible to me. Spoonwood do you research Alpha yourself when you play Sumeria ?

    Buildings in core cities
    Granary in each city ? Or just in my 2 or 3 settlers/workers factories ? With Greek, it seems to me that Pottery came too late to be useful to be built ?
    Military, I usually build two barracks and then defense units all the time in those two cities until I get at least 1 in each city or 2 units in border cities. Is this too much ?
    When should I start with libraries ? When I have already enough workers (i.e. two per city) and spearmen or hoplites ?

    Great Library
    As soon as I built the GL, I should stop research, should not I ? Until Education of course. Then I guess I should go Astronomy and then Theory of gravity.
     
  10. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    @Naok

    1. I strongly advise putting the aggression level at "least aggressive" if you don't already have it there already.

    With Sumeria I usually go either granary-settlers, or worker-granary-settlers. No enkidus, as the AI will contact me soon enough usually. If I have a second food bonus, I might go an enkidu or two, a settler, 3 or 4 total workers to develop the two cities, then granaries and settlers. That said, just going granary-settlers might work out better depending on how close the AIs lie to you.

    Well, you do want to go with irrigating the first food bonus, but other than that it depends and I really don't know one way or the other.

    Yes. I do try to trade for it as quickly as I can if possible, but if not, oh well. I usually do play with Babylon. I think you slow things down overall by going with the CB gambit.

    Yes. You want to build offensive units much more often than defensive units in general, as offensive units get rated higher by the AIs. Also, you do have unit support to worry about here. You might want to try and get comfortable putting up infrastructure before military, unless you think attacking a neighboring AI early will help you pick up your research more.

    When you have enough workers, and you can pre-build them with temples or libraries without wasting (too many) shields. Don't worry about units if you put in early libraries.

    If you feel you want the Great Library to catch up in tech (and I have often felt so at this level), do NOT then shut off research (except maybe for a turn or two). You want to push the tech pace forward as fast as you can really, and shutting off research won't help here.

    If you think you can manage Cope's by researching Astronomy yourself, then it might come as worth it (I've done this before, though I'm not so sure I did the best thing). That said, Banking and Chemistry come as more undervalued by the techs by the AIs and the AIs almost seem to funnel to Astronomy after learning Education, though not quite like how they funnel to Replaceable Parts after learning Electricity. You might want to consult this list (though don't take it as gospel, as it isn't always accurate).
     
  11. Naok

    Naok Chieftain

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    Thanks Spoonwood for detailed answers. I decided to go for Sumeria. With CB, I really would like to get a SGL for the Great Library. It took me around 40 turns to complete on my last try and I found this slowing down my game.

    Two more questions :

    During the expansion phase, do you usually build cities close to your capital or do you do the outside-inside strategy ? I tried the outside-inside strategy and had problem with flipping cities.

    With the GL, should I do the scientific civ free tech trick or not ? On my last try, I finished the GL when others civs were already in the MA. So it cost me a lot of money to get the free tech of others civs and I will have it anyway with the GL.
     
  12. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I don't know to both questions. It depends.
     
  13. bluejay

    bluejay Warlord

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    You can learn a lot by looking at the top-rated games already in the HOF for the particular difficulty level, map size, and victory condition. In particular, the 1000BC saves give clues to good early strategies.
     
  14. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Naok, you might also pick up techs via the ideas roughly outlined here (or find a thread called "Sid Strategies" or the "Sid Domination game for AnthonyIII")
     
  15. Naok

    Naok Chieftain

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    Thanks Spoonwood. I already saw your thread and I also went through http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=347484. It is still hard for me to understand all of it. There are a lot of different tricks, and I should try some of them to better understand. I dont think I ever did any of those.


    In http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10212663&postcount=39 :
    - When you said "It went up to 105 gpt post tax collectors.", do you change all the citizens in tax collectors ? meanwhile they are starving ?
    - By the end you wrote "RoPs were signed with ...." do you usually sign RoPs ? Do the Ais abused of it (meaning coming with units to take my capital ) ?
    - For non-industrious civs you need 8 workers ?
    - Did I understood well : if there is only one civ having a lux to trade, I can just maximize my gpt ; then trade max gpt for lux (or a resource ?, the key of the strategy is to cut this trade later, if I understood), techs and others ; then cut the road ; then trade min gpt for lux (or resource).
    - Actually if it is a resource and I
    - Does the AIs get a reputation hit ?
    - Do you apply this strategy in all your games ?

    I just found this

    Same strategy or any differences ? And is it an exploit ????

    Are Emsworth aggrements and http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=165935 ban in the HOF ?

    I will go through the rest of sid strategy and I may come back with others questions ? or should I answer back in those threads ?
     
  16. Naok

    Naok Chieftain

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    Waheee. I just tried the first part of this strategy (meaning trage gpt for lux/res + techs then cut road) in one game and it is amazing.

    I am not sure how to use this to make AIs declare war on themselves as I road in "Sid Strategy". Do I need to start a war first with AI1 and then make Military Alliance with AI2 (with import of lux/ressource of course) against AI1, then cut the road ???? I am still at war with AI1. I dont feel really comfortable with war when I am just about to finish the expansion phase.

    I cut the road in one peripheral city. It seems ok for the beginning of a game. But it seems hard to keep it possible for a long time. Then is it better to cut roads around my capital ? Even if I get less money for the missing roads ?

    It brought me question about this gauntlet.
    - Do I really need the Great Library ? May be just as a touristic attraction do make more money for the scientific wonders that come later ?
    - When should I research techs myself ? I went Alpha>Writing>Literature. By then I already "bought" everything except Construction, Currency, Philo, CoL and Poly. And I am not sure if I should research something myself ?

    And
    Do you change for Democracy or do you stay in Rep if you play Sumeria ?

    And what about RoP and MA ? I dont really know how to play it ?
     
  17. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    All citizens to tax collectors when making the deals. After I've finished the deals on that turn, the tax collectors get reassigned to tiles.

    "By the end you wrote "RoPs were signed with ...." do you usually sign RoPs ? Do the Ais abused of it (meaning coming with units to take my capital ) ?"

    Sometimes I do, sometimes not. The AIs rarely, in my experience, abuse them, though it can happen.

    "For non-industrious civs you need 8 workers ?"

    No, 6 workers and 2 pillagers, or 9 workers and 3 pillagers.

    "Did I understood well : if there is only one civ having a lux to trade, I can just maximize my gpt ; then trade max gpt for lux (or a resource ?, the key of the strategy is to cut this trade later, if I understood), techs and others ; then cut the road ; then trade min gpt for lux (or resource)."

    The key lies in trading gpt for hard goods AND a luxury or resource. Then you cut the trade route, canceling the gpt deal, but you keep the hard goods. Then, at least if you really think it beneficial to use the trick again the next turn and want to make sure that AI has an extra luxury/resource, you obtain the luxury or resource via gpt after that.

    "Does the AIs get a reputation hit ?"

    I believe so.

    "Do you apply this strategy in all your games ?"

    I've only used it in my non-20k Sid games (except one Sid diplomatic game, which I wanted to finish as a 20k initially).

    "Same strategy or any differences ? And is it an exploit ????"

    Same strategy, earlier explanation, which I don't think as clear.

    "Are Emsworth aggrements and http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=165935 ban in the HOF ?"

    Banned. The strategy which Lord_Emsworth used put money from literally nowhere into the economy. The strategy I've described (which Lord_Emsworth actually helped me to understand), only takes what already exists in the economy and what gpt the AIs already do have.

    ". Do I need to start a war first with AI1 and then make Military Alliance with AI2 (with import of lux/ressource of course) against AI1, then cut the road ????"

    Yes, that sounds right. Note the strategy doesn't cause the military alliance, it just gets one AI to declare on another such that you don't have to stay tied down to that military alliance for 20 turns.

    "Then is it better to cut roads around my capital ? "

    I think using the capital comes as much easier.

    "Even if I get less money for the missing roads ?"

    That's a potential drawback, but it can work out as worth it.

    "Do I really need the Great Library ? May be just as a touristic attraction do make more money for the scientific wonders that come later ?"

    It depends on the game.

    "When should I research techs myself ? I went Alpha>Writing>Literature. By then I already "bought" everything except Construction, Currency, Philo, CoL and Poly. And I am not sure if I should research something myself ?"

    Research such that it will help pick up the tech pace.


    "Do you change for Democracy or do you stay in Rep if you play Sumeria ?"

    No, the Anarchy period would come as too long. I'd stay Republic.

    "And what about RoP and MA ? I dont really know how to play it ? "

    I think it safe to say that no one knows the best strategy exactly. This isn't to say you've asked bad questions or anything like that. In fact, I think you have good questions, and it's good to have questions. But, that said, I'd recommend trying something and seeing how it works. The disconnect-reconnect strategy for techs and gpt, at minimum, should give you something to fall back on (you can also overpay for the luxuries/resources which might help some AI research faster for you, but I haven't done this myself).
     
  18. Naok

    Naok Chieftain

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    Thanks Spoonwood. Your answers confirm my thoughts. It gives the good feeling that I am on the right way.

    I had another test game yesterday and once I messed up to build the road again. The next turn, Korean didnt had a extra Gems to trade for.
    So the question are :
    - Is there any possibility to cut the trade Korea is making with another AI without going for war ? I guess Trade Embargo is one of it. But then the other AI is not gonna be happy with me. Then I guess it is possible to import a lux/ressource with Trade Embargo and then cut the road. Any other possibility ?
    - Is there any possibility to know whom Korea is trading with (when they have already several trades with others AIs) ? Then I know whom I should make Trade Embargo.
     
  19. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I don't know of any other way. I don't think a trade embargo will work.

    If you go to the F4 screen and click on the "trades" tab (you might have to have embassies for this to work), you can see blue and yellow lines. If Korea has only one blue line, then they're trading that luxury/resource to the AI that blue line connects with. If they have two or more blue lines, the trade route runs to one of those blue line terminal points.
     
  20. Naok

    Naok Chieftain

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    I am still searching for a good game .... I might too picky.

    In my current game, I made a MA with Korea and Greek against Germany. After 20 turns, I didnt get an automatic question from Korea or Greek to know if I still want the MA. If (after those 20 turns) I make peace with Germany, do I get a Reputation hit with Korea or Greak?
     

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