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Holk Smash!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Civman33, Feb 21, 2009.

  1. Civman33

    Civman33 Gunship Pilot

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    I just learned a new and easy tactic as the Mayans. I call it, Holk Smash!

    Holk Smash! Is when you rush Holkans to eliminate an early enemy. For instance, a Holk Smash! Is more powerful than a quechua rush. Why? Holkans have :strength:4, and are immune to first strikes. Which is very useful when rushing enemy archer-defended cities early.


    First off, you need to build a barracks first. This allows you to build holkans with CR1, which provides a small city invasion bonus.

    Second, you need hunting and bronze working. Which are the techs that enable holkans to be built in any city until you have iron and engineering at the same time.

    Finally, you need to have about 6-10 holkans to remove a 4 archer city on flat ground, but 10-15 for one on a hill. ( Pain in the butt hill starting locations... ) But the CG and drill promotions make it all worse. You might want to bring some axemen with your force if you have metal.
     
  2. DaveMcW

    DaveMcW Deity

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    :lol: No. :lol:
     
  3. Bleys

    Bleys Deity

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    What Dave is trying to say is that Quechua's are a far better rushing unit than Holkans, for the following reasons (at least):

    1. They have 100% vs Archery units, making them also 4 STR
    2. They only cost half as much to build
    3. They come much, much earlier, can be built from the first turn, in fact.

    The only edge the Holkan has is the Immunity to FS, which is indeed strong, but not nearly strong enough to make them better. You need BW to make them, so odds are the AIs you are attempting to rush has BW, and as soon as you start seeing Axemen, your rush is OVER (Note, this is also true of the Quechua, but the window is MUCH bigger)
     
  4. CivCorpse

    CivCorpse Supreme Overlord of All

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    Actually 4.2 since quechas start with combat 1
     
  5. mirthadir

    mirthadir Emperor

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    Not only do quecha come with CI which helps for its own right, it also opens up Cover quickly. Which results in even more disparity. Building the rax (which is a bad idea for quecha due to time constraints) would thus give roughly 5.25 vs 4.8 (actual mechanics would make this even more lopsided quecha).

    The only time the Holkan rush is superior to quecha is if you somehow hit AI chariots but not axes. Which is just another way of saying that the quecha is broke as it beats a UU that requires 3 additional techs (albeit a starting tech for the Maya) and costs more.
     
  6. Crusher1

    Crusher1 King

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    Everyone has failed to mention that HC is a very ugly yellow and that even a failed rush and lost game with Holks could be a better alternative.
     
  7. Babibo

    Babibo Immortal

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    Ha ha ! Reminds me of my last attempt as the mayans on Deity. I had noticed my neighbour didn't have bronze and I had a good start, so I decided to rush him with holkans. By the time I could build 8 holkans, my neighbour had researched Iron working and built a bunch of axemen :)

    Deity is insane.
     
  8. bobbyboy29

    bobbyboy29 I was saying boo-urns...

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    correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you only need hunting to build holkans as they are resourceless? If this is the case then the rush would be much quicker, especially if you went unrestricted leaders and picked up someone who starts with hunting.
     
  9. Insanity_X

    Insanity_X Warlord

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    nope you still need bronze working, despite them being resourceless.
     
  10. Bleys

    Bleys Deity

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    They are resourceless, but they still require the tech BW.
     
  11. KaytieKat

    KaytieKat King

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    Hi

    and award for most evil pun of the year goes to... :p

    Kaytie
     
  12. Earthling

    Earthling Deity

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    Well, Quechuas aren't actually broken - at least not how I see the term in relation to the game - the thing that is broken is that the AI doesn't build warriors to defend it's cities. But still I find the Holkan rather weak - the Skirmisher is quicker on a rush, the Impi is probably more versatile. You have to get BW which gives your opponent time to get it as well - so really Holkans succeed if they don't have copper, but this is no different from a normal axe rush succeeding when your opponent doesn't have copper...
     
  13. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    To rush with Holkans (much like with Dogs), don't wait until you have 10 of them. If you do that, you totally throw away the advantage that you can get them early. Get a few (less that 5) and attack the enemy. You may not face more than one Archer in the cap, maybe 2 which you can kill unless you get unlucky on Monarch level. You basically want them on the enemy before they have axemen. On Emperor+, most rushes (including this one) are very situational from my experience.
     
  14. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Holkans are a cloud of smoke! They're gonna choke!
     
  15. Cashew

    Cashew Prince

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    Ehhhh. But unlike with dogs people can actually ward off holkans using only warriors. Especially for capitals on hills, you're going to have a hard time winning when your enemy just spams warriors while they tech archery. At least with dog soldiers you have a bit of a gambit, but with holkans even the most ideal situation is pretty lousy.
     
  16. Agramon

    Agramon Warlord

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    While I was playing noble, I found Holkans quite impressive. And quechuas really useless, because they have really crappy odds agains the puny warriors the AI used as city defenders.

    When I moved up to prince (or monarch can't remember) I wiped out 2 neighbours with massed quechuas leaving the third with one city to become a vassal that was to colonize the cold and arid north of the map. One of the best wonder games ever ;-)

    And yeah, the are way more unbalanced than Praets.
     
  17. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Somebody start a Mayan game and try to rush someone. :)
     
  18. fed1943

    fed1943 Emperor

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    From my experience, 1/2 Holkans are very good to choke, not to rush.

    Best regards,
     
  19. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    I've never run into that, but it seems plausible. If that happens, you can still pillage at will though and prevent him from improving his tiles; warriors are not gonna be able to kill Holkans in the open. Still a winning proposition for the Maya player. In fact, even when Archers show up, they cannot take Holkans out on open land cost-efficiently either. The truth is if the defender has 3 or less Archers, you can pillage at will with 2 Holkans. In MP, most players will quit when choked early. Strong players will stick it out and try to lift the choke either through killing the chokers or escorting their workers. On the other hand, they may try to choke the Maya player or even take their capital!! If the Maya player has whipped out his capital to build Holkans for choking (to size 1) and chopped the nearby forests, a few enemy Archers showing up at their capital can really hurt.
     
  20. MadmanAtW

    MadmanAtW Knight

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    It sounds like, as someone said upthread, the right thing is to declare with fewer than you need and choke to make sure he can't actually connect that iron while you build up the rest of your army.

    If he has a city settled on iron, then load a saved game. ;)
     

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