Holodomor Remembrance Day...

[AmtrakQuebec]

While the starvation did affect much of the Soviet Union at the time, it disproportionately affected Ukraine... which is horribly ironic since Ukraine was producing the majority of the food, they didn't call it the breakbasket of Europe for nothing. Stalin was far more interested in selling their food to other countries than feeding his own people.

 

[innonimatu]

Stalin was not the first, though—Lenin and the “war communism” imposed confiscation, and there was a famine in Russia shortly thereafter.

Lenin was actually very much for an alliance with the peasants, and knew they civil war could only be won with them on the bolsheviks' side. Russia being still a mostly rural country that is by definition... In fact the communists had to win over the soldiers in the army, mostly peasants, in order to have any chance at taking power. Most of the delegates in the soviets came from... the army. The peasants drafted into it. Which is also why the new bolshevik government had to end WW1 giving to Germany as much as they demanded. They had to satisfy that constituency with the promised peace and bread.
Later in the civil war war communism was Trotsky's department. And he had his projects cut short for the sake of ending those wars asap.

Stalin changed policy on his own, and only after years of having the instruments of the state firmly under control and a big portion of the rural population on board.

 

[Lexicus]

Not during 1921-1923 famine. Bolsheviks didn't control whole country's territory back then and Lenin officially requested aid from "all honest European and American people".

I was talking about the famine that happened in 1932, the one that is the subject of this thread.

Stalin was far more interested in selling their food to other countries than feeding his own people.

FWIW, this is no different than the British in Ireland less than a century earlier.

 

[AmtrakQuebec]

Just a matter of scale I guess.

 

[Gelion]

While the starvation did affect much of the Soviet Union at the time, it disproportionately affected Ukraine... which is horribly ironic since Ukraine was producing the majority of the food, they didn't call it the breakbasket of Europe for nothing. Stalin was far more interested in selling their food to other countries than feeding his own people.

Its not uncommon in Russia of the Tsars. There were many instances of famine in the neighbouring Volga basin in the XIX century where families would watch grain that was sold abroad decent down the river while they had nothing to eat.

 

[AmtrakQuebec]

Again, just a matter of scale I guess.

 

[Gelion]

Again, just a matter of scale I guess.

Anything is, I guess. Famine is perhaps the worst of the perils to live through...

 

[Lexicus]

Just a matter of scale I guess.

Not sure I'd agree in the case of the Irish famine. In absolute numbers the Holodomor killed more but Ireland I think saw greater % population loss. There were fewer people to kill in the 19th century.

 

[AmtrakQuebec]

That would be proportion, not scale

 

[Zardnaar]

Not during 1921-1923 famine. Bolsheviks didn't control whole country's territory back then and Lenin officially requested aid from "all honest European and American people".

Wars not good for famines etc but it was a war started by the Bolsheviks for power.

Tsar was gone 1917 so yeah most of the famines from 1917-45 or so can be blamed on the Communists except 1941-45.

 

[Zardnaar]

I was talking about the famine that happened in 1932, the one that is the subject of this thread.



FWIW, this is no different than the British in Ireland less than a century earlier.

Irish famine was more incompetence at the local level.

Ukrainian famine was deliberate government policy from the highest levels.

Russia never recovered demographically from 1917-45. Lenin should have done his people s favour and shot himself 1916.

Tsar was bad but yeah. Pattern repeated itself in China, Cambodia Vietnam etc.

 

[Lexicus]

Irish famine was more incompetence at the local level.

Straight-up false, but okay.

 

[Birdjaguar]

In talking about the Irish famine, are we talking about the blight itself and remedies to minimize its impact or are we talking about the various government responses to lack of food? Could the blight have been anticipated or prevented with the knowledge at the time? Was the English goal to kill the Irish?

 

[Zardnaar]

In talking about the Irish famine, are we talking about the blight itself and remedies to minimize its impact or are we talking about the various government responses to lack of food? Could the blight have been anticipated or prevented with the knowledge at the time? Was the English goal to kill the Irish?

Well the blight was gonna happen regardless the British response was abysmal.

But the difference is in the Ukraine but was man made there was enough food

 

[red_elk]

Was the English goal to kill the Irish?

Were the Irish majority of victims? In USSR estimates vary, but including all affected regions, majority of those who perished were ethnic Russians.

 

[Zardnaar]

Were the Irish majority of victims? In USSR estimates vary, but including all affected regions, majority of those who perished were ethnic Russians.

Its proportional a lot more Russians than Ukrainians.

I know Stalin gets credit for defeating the Nazis but the counter argument is a more competent leader could have done the same thing withough the death and destruction.

 

[Sommerswerd]

In talking about the Irish famine, are we talking about the blight itself and remedies to minimize its impact or are we talking about the various government responses to lack of food? Could the blight have been anticipated or prevented with the knowledge at the time? Was the English goal to kill the Irish?

Not necessarily to kill the Irish as I remember, but almost indifferent to the deaths of the Irish. The UK government used the blight as an excuse to pass a bunch of economic and moral/cultural reforms on the Irish.

 

[AmtrakQuebec]

Were the Irish majority of victims? In USSR estimates vary, but including all affected regions, majority of those who perished were ethnic Russians.

Please show me some statistics to support this statement.

 

[red_elk]

Please show me some statistics to support this statement.

As I said, estimates vary. Average numbers give 3-4 millions died in Ukrainian territory, 2-3 in RSFSR and another 1.5-2 in Kazakhstan.
If you look at the most affected areas, in Ukraine they were to the East of Kiev, where significant proportion of ethnic Russians lived, in some areas >75%
Territories of modern Western Ukraine were not affected at all.

 

[amadeus]

Territories of modern Western Ukraine were not affected at all.

Yes, they were part of Poland.