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Holy crap... is Germany OPed or what? :D

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Sascha77, Nov 10, 2016.

  1. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

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    That's actually not quite right. Japan gets both the bonuses AND high production. It gets them both, and it gets the housing.

    Of course, you build on freshwater as much as possible, or use Aqueducts in the Classical Era. Not sure Germany gets around that. Maybe. Pretty hard to make Districts in a 2 pop city, though. So 5 population. 7 with Granaries. 8 with Barracks or Stables. Alternatively, 9 with Holy Site and Religious Housing. 10 or 11 with Medina Quarters once you get there (the Theaters help). 12 to 13 with 4 Farms? That's pretty good, right? 4 Farms means you have lots to work on Mines.

    13 is 5 Districts - 6 including the City Center. Way more than enough to coordinate with another city to make crazy Adjacency bonus stacking.

    I mean, the Hansa is +4 cogs adjacency. It's not fantastically good. It's not going to overwhelm anything. That's one Mine's worth.

    I think people are mistaking beelining Apprenticeship for Hansa. I almost always prioritize Apprenticeship, regardless of the Civ. It's not the IZ. It's the mining bonus. That's the one that'll boost your cogs.
     
  2. WileyWilson

    WileyWilson Chieftain

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    Developers don't tend to play their own software. In very simple terms, they agree the specification, write the code, check it works, pass it to an in-house tester to test, correct any errors, pass for re-testing (etc). I'd be very surprised if Civ6 development cycle included the phase - "Play each Civilization for 100 hours to check balance".

    That said, I do agree with you that Germany is OP. Perhaps the extra military slot or extra district is going a bit far.

    I am sure a balance patch will be released soon. We can then look forward to "FFS they've nerfed Germany!"
     
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  3. Balkans

    Balkans Warlord

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    Currently playing my first game as Germany, didn't even get some insane start position, i was quite surprised how strong Germany is. I played nice smart game, but i am surprised just how explosive the commercial/hansa combo is. Add other stuff that you can do in the mix and you got yourself one of the strongest civs, if not strongest.
     
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  4. Jarms48

    Jarms48 Prince

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    Germany is amazing at going super wide. I typically build cities every 5 tiles (4 in-between cities), whilst trying to overlap as many commercial districts and hanza's as possible. Germany doesn't really have to worry about growth, at population 1 you get 3 districts, the first 2 should always be commercial district and hanza, the third should be whatever you wish to specialize that city in. Going super wide like this also lets you overlap as many factory and zoo "bubbles" as possible. I've had cities with 4 interconnected hanza's and commercial districts, and each of those hanza's with factories, you get amazing factory bonuses with all that.

    Another good tactic is to build "in-fill" cities later. Establish your borders originally, then fill them in with smaller cities just to get the bonuses from their extra districts. I've settled cities, turned on production focus, turned off growth focus, gave the surrounding cities its workable tiles and just built 3-4 districts to improve said surrounding cities.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2016
  5. Ulthwithian

    Ulthwithian King

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    That's not been my experience. My experience is that Japan simply either chokes at being able to put down districts (i.e., doesn't make the most use of its UAs) or getting the production to put anything through them.

    Getting a 7 pop city isn't too much, granted. That's three (3) districts with Japan, or five (5) with Germany.

    Getting to 10 pop for a 4th district with Japan is quite difficult. Because you have to have the Food to get there, the Housing to get there, and the production to make it meaningful. And I've found it quite difficult if you are putting down three (3) districts down. That might be a border issue, though.

    I'll also point out that, if you want to ensure that you can put IZs down everywhere as Japan, you have to be very careful not to put down districts so that you have the spaces available when you research it. And that means that Meiji Restoration and (especially) Divine Wind doesn't give you bonuses any earlier than the Hansa.

    At the end of the day, Japan may have a higher ceiling to its power for skilled players. Germany, though, is almost braindead easy to do well with. Which is a shame, because Japan is almost my ideal Civ to play.
     
  6. LanguishViking

    LanguishViking Warlord

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    Any halfway competent placement of a hansa gives 5 hammers. 2 for commercial district, 2 for 2 resources and 1 for two adjecent districts (another one in addition to the commercial hub). I rarely see non-hansa industrial districts getting more than 4 at best. My german cities tend to cluster districts with the harbor-commerce hub-hansa-city center at the core with (in sites without mountains) the remaining districts in the outer layer with a focus on faith and science for adjacency bonuses.
     
  7. fubi

    fubi Chieftain

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    Here's how to play Germany :)
     

    Attached Files:

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  8. Sascha77

    Sascha77 Prince

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    Maybe I got lucky, but in most of my cities I have the Hansa next to the commercial hub, while having the Hansa near at least two resources and the hub on a river. In my capital it has three resources near it (real lucky niter-reveal.. two sources of it right at my capital, wow!). On top of that, I finished the Ruhr Valley in the capital just now and production really went through the roof - think it's around 95 there ATM. Oh, and yes: in all but one of my cities the commercial hubs are all next to rivers, so ... :D

    Kongo is defeated now BTW.. I had to do it to be able to compete with Scythia. She's filling up the other continent with cities like mad.. Right now I'm 290 points ahead of her, but she can still expand over there while I have no room to found new cities ... so perhaps this game isn't a done deal just yet... :D Problem is I just took 5 cities from Kongo, someone beat me to the Colosseum and now I have to build entertainment crap everywhere ... war weariness really ground my conquest to a halt more or less.




    S.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2016
  9. Mr. Shadows

    Mr. Shadows Nomad of the time streams

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    The extra policy slot from turn one means that Germany has a tangible bonus starting extremely early. The hansa and the extra district take a while before they kick in, but with minimal planning it will bloom into a very powerful empire. There's no doubt that they have very strong bonuses, but it takes a long time to cash in on them. A civ with strong faith production can faith-by a unit every several turns once they hit theocracy. If your civ can get a religion fast you might be able to get Jesuit Education. Between the buildings and the units you can save a ton of hammers no matter what VC you ultimately want. Sure, Germany will become a beast but other civs will start to snowball earlier. Germany has strong bonuses, but so do several other civs, and the game is so new that we're still figuring out the best strategies.
     
  10. CaiusDrewart

    CaiusDrewart King

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    You're not using Germany to its fullest. Apprenticeship comes at the very beginning of the Medieval Era and is a really easy tech to beeline. It's got an absolutely trivial Eureka and so do most of its prerequisite techs. You can pick up Commercial Hubs and Horsemen along the way, which are both really really good. It doesn't come late at all.

    Furthermore, the real advantage of the Hansa is not its adjacency bonus (which is better than a normal IZ, but only slightly), but the fact that it's half price and can be spammed everywhere without taking up a slot.

    Finally, the extra military policy is in fact quite a bit of help in the early game. You can run +5 vs. barbs and a unit production policy, and later a unit production policy and a maintenance cost reduction policy at the same time. Then later, you can go into Classical Republic and have up to three economic policy slots while still running Conscription. That's awesome.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2016
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  11. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

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    The Military Policy slot is kind of a help? It gets you +50% production towards Warriors and Archers, usually. So you get a few cogs off. Are you going to be making them nonstop? No. There's really not much Military benefits you can get in expanding in the Ancient and Classical before Classical Republic rolls along, and Germany doesn't get any help in making Political Philosophy come by faster.

    If you're beelining Apprenticeship, you're effectively limited to Horsemen. What if there are no horses near German borders, as happens too often? If you beeline that strictly to make it early-ish, you're missing out on a lot of stuff. No Walls. No Archers. No Pyramids. No Iron. So you either luck out on Horses and can make an early-ish maybe beeline, or you don't and it's late.

    I'm not saying Germany isn't strong. I'm saying it's not OP. It's not that very far away from the rest.
     
  12. Ogaw

    Ogaw Chieftain

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    Germany is number 1 in my opinion. Hansa is just so good.
     
  13. Jarms48

    Jarms48 Prince

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    It lets you choose a Classical Republic, and still use Conscription. Which means you can spam archers, spearmen, and heavy chariots, for no upkeep cost. That lets you maintain Urban Planning consistently, and lets you slot in either God King/Ilkum/Colonization/Land Surveyors/Caravansaries, depending on your circumstance. Thanks to the extra military slot there's no real need to go Autocracy, as you'll always have a minimum of 1, 2 if you go Oligarchy, so there's no need to worry about losing your diplomacy slot.

    You can still beeline into Apprenticeship by spreading your techs out a little, by working towards the easily obtainable eureka's. I almost always build slingers so detouring into Archery isn't much of an investment, detouring into Wheel isn't much of an investment either as its eureka is essentially 1/3rd of the eureka for Apprenticeship. The minimum amount of techs required to research Apprenticeship is 5, 4 of which have have eureka's that means you can potentially work towards 4 other techs if you're planning to use eureka's to finish them. IE: Instead of using your science to 100% all 4 eureka techs, you get 8 to 50% and finish them via their eureka (if that makes sense).
     
  14. Knut_Are_M

    Knut_Are_M Prince

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    Germany is good. But for midgame/lategame i prefer Aztecs. Aztecs can get a +16 combat bonus to all units lategame. Early game it is usually 5-7 as much as a general. +1 combat strength per lux means every single unit becomes as strong or stronger then a UU. With 15 luxes hooked up Your musketmen are as strong as infantry.
    Ps something to test, but does crusade religious pick remove war weariness? had a mp game as Aztecs and went on a conquering spree and got 0 war weariness. PS i did not loose units since my units were inzanely OP. like +25 combat strength in favor of me. like 1 hit kill. +5 from general, +13 from luxes,+10 from religion while on offence. Apostle+military unit for the win.
     
  15. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

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    Jarms48:

    Yes, man. We knew all that. That's what everyone does with all the Civs. Well, maybe not everyone. But a lot.
     
  16. Frostburn

    Frostburn Warlord

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    Germany is very good but nothing touches Scythia, and a distant but clear 2nd place is Sumeria.

    Germany might be 3rd, but I wouldnt call any civs "OP" except for those top 2.
     
  17. cairnsy44

    cairnsy44 Gooner - first class

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    Yeah I played as Germany in my very first game and accidentally won a culture victory. I had no idea I was even close to it. I was targeting a science win.
     
  18. Kougar7

    Kougar7 Warlord

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    Germany is probably a little too strong, yes. The Hanse districts build crazy fast, feels like building a water mill first is actually less efficient. Germany made it stupidly easy to beat a an AI on deity even after I gave it two eras warning with an advanced war declaration (had to kill its prophets). Two cities were cranking battleship and U-boat fleets every 4-7 turns, I didn't even build the Venetian wonder for double the ships.

    And yes the AI is beyond useless, I never lost a single unit as it barely defended it's capital, despite being way above me in tech and equivalent army size.
     
  19. isau

    isau Deity

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    I agree that the real power of Germany is not the hammers per se but the fact that the Hanse is free and costs half the hammers, and you get yet another free district beyond that. That specific combo, along with the free Military policy slot, is incredible.
     
  20. RealHuhn

    RealHuhn Emperor

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    Germany's broken because in each size 1 city, they can "lock down" the costs of 3 districts. Expand as quickly as possible to 6-8 cities, beeline commercial hubs and hansas and lock down districts immediately. The amount of hammers you save by doing this compared to other civs is pretty hilarious. Ignore religion, by the way. It only slows down your expansion.

    And I don't know why people say Hansa is only +4 adjacency. If you have 4 hexes between your cities you can easily get more than +4.
    Four cities close together are enough to create this pattern (CH = commercial hub, H = Hansa):
    CH CH
    H H H
    CH CH

    The Hansa in the middle gets +9, the ones on the side get +4. That's before you calculate stuff like additional adjacent districts or +1 for each adjacent bonus resource. Add the +100% adjacency card for IZs, add more powerful internal trade routes (because more districts per city, 4food/4production routes on turn 100 are easy to get) and add the "lock down" effect and you are looking at a broken civ right there. With this setup, a size 5 city without any improved tiles and a single trade route can produce "locked down" districts in about 6-8 turns.

    In my first try, I won science victory on turn 256, Deity/standard/fractal. I had room for 7 cities (close together but only 4 cities had this nice overlap) and didn't capture cities from the AI. On an optimal map with a bit more space and a less snaky landscape, I'd assume even turn 256 can be beaten easily.
     

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