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holy hell that Ukraine stuff

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Perfection, Sep 24, 2019.

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hot takes

Poll closed Oct 1, 2019.
  1. trump gonna get impeached

    11 vote(s)
    29.7%
  2. trump gonna get removed from office

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. trump gonna get reelected

    8 vote(s)
    21.6%
  4. trump gonna lose election

    4 vote(s)
    10.8%
  5. joe biden gonna win primary

    6 vote(s)
    16.2%
  6. joe biden gonna lose primary

    10 vote(s)
    27.0%
  7. holy hell

    7 vote(s)
    18.9%
  8. holy smokes

    7 vote(s)
    18.9%
  9. holy christ on a cracker

    9 vote(s)
    24.3%
  10. meh

    6 vote(s)
    16.2%
  11. huh?

    2 vote(s)
    5.4%
  12. im pissed perfs had the polls close in a week so i couldn't be cagey and vote after the dust settled

    3 vote(s)
    8.1%
  13. good thinking perfs on the polls timeout

    6 vote(s)
    16.2%
  14. this is all mere prelude to giant death robots taking over

    11 vote(s)
    29.7%
  15. it's rigged i tell you rigged

    5 vote(s)
    13.5%
  16. why aren't you talking more about biden perfs it's really about biden

    1 vote(s)
    2.7%
  17. trump is criminal scum

    19 vote(s)
    51.4%
  18. joe biden is criminal scum

    9 vote(s)
    24.3%
  19. hunter biden is criminal scum

    8 vote(s)
    21.6%
  20. mashed potatoes and gravy

    11 vote(s)
    29.7%
  21. mashed potatoes alone

    6 vote(s)
    16.2%
  22. gravy alone

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  23. neither mashed potatoes nor gravy

    2 vote(s)
    5.4%
  24. [insert poll option here]

    7 vote(s)
    18.9%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Truthy

    Truthy Non-boolean

    Joined:
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    It looks like the FBI did request physical access. However, Comey also testified that what they were given was appropriate and that sounds about right to me. Malware is software, (a) residing on disk, (b) in memory, and (c) often using network I/O (we're told this "Cozy Bear" aka "APT29" malware was sending stolen data somewhere). It is a fact that CrowdStrike gave the FBI disk and memory images (a & b) and network logs (c). That is good enough. As for the claim "they accepted a report from Crowdstrike as a substitute for their own forensics", that's wrong. I think you're conflating "forensics" with "report" or "analysis."

    So you'd have us believe CrowdStrike (and multiple other companies) fabricated a bunch of computer forensics and no one ever noticed, despite so many people being involved and re-analyzing their data. Or, more likely, you'd have us believe these companies and the FBI and the rest of the IC and even many of Trump's allies in Congress (who've seen all the classified evidence) are all in cahoots to bring him down. And the FBI even began preparing for this coup in 2014 (Paul Manafort starts being investigated) and 2015 (FBI learns the DNC has been hacked, long before Trump becomes the nominee). Not buying it.

    I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill and letting Trump lead us down rabbit holes that don't matter.

    Well, you did not remember correctly, if we're talking about the same batch of indictments. You can read it yourself. IRA is never even mentioned. But lots of evidence Russia hacked the DNC is.

    A lot of speculation that's getting away from the main point here: Trump has been making bizarre and farfetched claims about "the DNC server" (again, there was no singular DNC server and it makes no sense that it would be in Ukraine or Ukraine would have anything to do with it) and trying to base US foreign policy on his beliefs about this server (beliefs most of his own people have been telling him are bs). And the Biden nonsense, of course. But that's the WH for you when we elect the dude who cut his teeth on birtherism.

    Somewhat true, somewhat false.

    The investigation was as much about Russia as it was about Trump. He gave the media ammo by making the investigation all about himself because... he's a childish narcissist who makes everything about himself.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
    Kaitzilla likes this.
  2. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    I dont care what you or anybody else thinks my motives are for posting, thats something I know and you dont. If I said your motive for posting was A) and you knew it was B), you wouldn't care what I thought either.

    Heya, aren't you supposed to be using the quote function brave Sir Tim? You're such a hypocrite

    I know my motives, you dont. Is it megalomania when you dont care what I think about your motives? You're such a...oh, I said that already.

    Barr, Durham and Trump's legal team are investigating. How long did we have to wait for Mueller's report?

    The black ledger is what brought Manafort down in the summer of '16 during the election and he said it was a forgery because he didn't get cash payments. Now if he's right then somebody - Ukrainians, Obama, Biden or Clinton - forged his name. What the FBI didn't find in '14 has no bearing on what happened.

    Isn't the dossier irrefutable evidence the Democrats solicited help from foreigners to win an election? Why yes it is... I remember back in '17 when the Democrat's media was telling us about Christopher Steele and his gospel of truth. A foreigner tried to throw the election to Hillary by feeding lies to the FBI to spy on Trump and he's a hero to the protectors of democracy.
     
  3. Tristan_C

    Tristan_C Emperor

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    Again, you're posting stuff with different dates. Here are alternative facts from the scum at ABC including a separate indictment dated months earlier. I thought there might have been two. The Mueller report itself has them in different sections.

    No; in fact when this came up in an earlier discussion here I expressed a preference for Crowdstrike over the insider leak theory. However, I like how the sequence of events draws attention to how differently Obama's FBI treated the two campaigns in 2016. If Trump's FBI behaves like that in 2020, you guys are going to go absolutely berserk. How dare the Republicans behave like Democrats.

    That phrase about the molehill sort of describes the entire Russia narrative. I think much within the story is trivial, but the meta— the showdown between Trump and his allies versus the deep state and its allies— is breathtaking. It is a molehill that has legitimately evolved into a mountain.
     
  4. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    I did. I was talking to Zelig, so I quoted Zelig. When I pointed out the quote function to you it didn't occur to me that you would need an explanation for how to use it. Overestimated your intelligence I guess, though given what I think about your intelligence that is really hard to believe.
     
    Cloud_Strife likes this.
  5. Truthy

    Truthy Non-boolean

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    Oct 9, 2010
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    I edited my post before you responded to say "if we're talking about the same batch of indictments."

    Oh, I see. Really didn't know what your position was. But still don't really see how it was that big of a deal or special treatment. The whole way it was handled, from how much access the DNC provided to the role of third parties to what the FBI was content with accepting, seems really mundane to me. But if the RNC gets hacked at some point and the media loses it because the RNC doesn't cart hundreds of servers down to Quantico, I'll give you this one.

    (...though I do see a huge difference between media fake news hysteria and fake news hysteria coming straight from the WH and guiding foreign policy)

    Sure, I kind of agree with this. I've been bearish on Russia stuff since 2016, though I'm buying where you're selling. I would quibble with the intentionality. I see it more as a taxoplasma of rage thing going on.
     
    Tristan_C likes this.
  6. Zelig

    Zelig Beep Boop

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    I would care if everyone was dismissing me out of hand because I came across as a angry crackpot. I'd either adjust my posting style to get people to stop dismissing me, or stop posting.
     
    Timsup2nothin and Cloud_Strife like this.
  7. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    Dec 30, 2000
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    You said it was chicken to snipe at you without a notification, quoting Zelig while sniping at me doesn't notify me.

    I certainly dont want to be dismissed by people I respect, what posting style would you recommend? Perhaps these examples will meet with your approval:

    "Overestimated your intelligence I guess, though given what I think about your intelligence that is really hard to believe."

    "Your revisionist history is ******* abhorrent because you're a dumpster fire politically."

    "Your posts are predictable. Although you claim to be a libertarian you always defend Trump and can't fault anything he does. Although you claim to not be a racist whenever the police shoot a black person you are always making excuses for them. Not just sometimes, always."

    "You really don't need to shill for Trump, you know. He's perfectly capable of lying through his teeth on his own"

    No anger there... I suppose I could insult people, nasty and rude seem to be popular. What do you think?
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
    Tristan_C likes this.
  8. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Those aren't directed at "people" in general. Every single one of them was directed specifically at you, by people who generally aren't nasty and rude to much of anyone else. And no doubt every one of them garnered plenty of likes. Being nasty and rude to you is popular, incredibly popular actually, not being nasty and rude in general. Here's something else all those posts have in common...they are widely accepted hereabouts as true. Your posts are predictable. In said posts you routinely present wildly revised history, and it is abhorrent. The most likely conclusions to draw from that, since we can't by rule just dismiss you as a troll, would be that you are a dumpster fire politically or a shill for Trump, which is pretty much the same thing.

    Nothing in the way you are treated is likely to change, because your posts show no indication that they are going to change. At this point even if you tried to change it up you have established such a detailed picture of yourself for most people that it would likely take years to change how you are perceived. So I think you should pack up and leave. I know you asked Zelig, not me, but I'd be surprised if he, or much of anyone else, disagrees.
     
    Cloud_Strife, hobbsyoyo and Lexicus like this.
  9. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    You're not nasty and rude in general? I've seen how you treat other people here, nasty and rude is your posting style to anyone who disagrees with you too much or sets you off for some other reason. I've seen you in action, Tim. You're a stalker and you're doing it in this thread. You've admitted to following posters around with insults to make them leave and you've admitted trolling other websites.

    You did the same thing to Jay and he rarely comes by any more, did you get any likes for that? Did your pals give a hooray for Tim? And you think I want to join your circle jerk? As for the likes, its the same people over and over. Thats yer echo chamber. Did you ever think about that when deciding most everyone agrees with you?

    None of that is true (aside from being libertarian, albeit impure) but he got likes. I'm supposed to be impressed by your little club of boot likers? I'm probably less predictable than most of you, I took the side of Omar and Kaep when Trump went after them, so did you predict that AQ? Was that evidence of my racism? No, your evidence is I've never blamed cops for killing black people.

    Now if I was that detached from the truth the moderators would be all over me. Hell, I cant even post an article about how the USA became involved in the Syrian war without LM accusing me of trolling by criticizing Hillary in every post (sorry, had to get my dose of Hillary into the post). Actually I dont criticize her that much, mostly I'm directing my criticism at people who think Trump is the devil but give a collective yawn when the Democrats are exposed as hypocrites.

    I should leave because of how you perceive me? Where did you get the idea I'm here to be your friend? I wouldn't even like you if I agreed with your politics. I'm here to argue for what I believe just like everyone else. And I believe Democrats are being hypocritical for condemning Trump for 'crimes' his political opponents also committed... and thats why there are people who dont like my 'posting style'.

    If I joined the echo chamber and spent all my time criticizing Trump and ignoring the Democrats, my posting style would get many likes. Its as simple as that... People can disagree with your club, but not too much. And for God's sake, dont ask the Pharisees about their fine glass houses.
     
  10. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Guess what, that isn't what most people are here for. Most people are here to socialize, which people generally prefer to do with people that they like...or at the very least don't despise.
     
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  11. Lemon Merchant

    Lemon Merchant Professional Killjoy Moderator

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    Moderator Action: So we've noticed a distressing trend for these threads to go off topic lately and turn into a free for all where some people gang up on others, for no other reason it seems than to score points at who can be the most politically correct/righteous, or otherwise a generally good person. We have been relatively quiet on this front so far, but no longer. This is supposed to be a place of relatively free discussion, with everyone allowed to express a viewpoint as long as it is within the rules. The point of a thread is to discuss a topic, not each other. If you want to discuss each other, then I suggest that you do it in PM. An open thread is not the place to throw insults around. Remember that there are flaming rules.

    Posting that you want someone gone is not nice, but neither is posting the same tired argument, simply rephrased, over and over and over again. It's frustrating to other people and they in turn lash out as we are seeing now. For those of you lashing out, please remember that this forum is inclusive of everyone, no matter their viewpoint (within reason). If you object to someone that strenuously, may I suggest the ignore list?

    If I haven't made my point clear by now, the lot of you are to stop bickering immediately and go back to discussing the topic of the thread. If the subject has been exhausted, then tell me and I will close the thread for you. And if this bickering continues, the thread will be closed and infractions handed out. Thank you.

    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  12. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    No, it was not appropriate. It was, in fact a draft. Read the famous Mueller report. Its not good enough. There is such a thing as a chain of custody for evidence, and there is the requirement of evidence in the first place. A draft report from a partisan company (they're political supporters of Clinton) paid to serve the political party who conveniently wants to play the victim and spin a story is not evidence. Not even that existed. In a court case those claims by Crowdstrike would be thrown out. But it was a political case...

    Have you checked on what happened to those few claims by Mueller that made it to court? Flynn is claiming, successfully so far, prosecution misconduct against him. The famous russian troll farm showed up in court and afaik the prosecution is still refusing to present evidence for its claims about it.

    The whole thing was a fabrication to protect those within the intelligence community that did interfere with the 2016 election, certain that by supporting the to-be victorious candidate they would be rewarded. A sure bet...
     
  13. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Deity

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    I can't even keep up with how fast you guys spin these webs of self deceit. Never the most obvious answer is it boys?
     
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  14. Tristan_C

    Tristan_C Emperor

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    It wasn't fair of me not to say so.

    I leaned in favor of Crowdstrike (slightly at least) in postmortem on mueller #693.

    Yeah I have almost no trouble thinking that Crowdstrike can keep a secret for the DNC. My issue would be that it would be very technically difficult to lay a trail of breadcrumbs for the FBI, assuming as Truthy has indicated that the FBI eventually got a shot at the server a year later. I really don't know who to believe in all this.

    I agree that Mueller's other indictments make the issue a complete mess. The Manafort case is solid but unrelated to Trump. The indictments of troll farms and GRU seem to have been entirely for show, since they were unwilling to prosecute, and also unrelated to Trump. The indictments on Stone, Gates, Flynn, and Papadopolous are hot garbage. Some one-time FBI and CIA people, plus some judges, should have hell to pay on these, but I won't hold my breath.
     
  15. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    I don't even have a horse on that race, except a hope (small one) of seeing Sanders elected and solving some problems there in a way that may set a good example for the rest of the world. On Trump's war with the so-called "intelligence community", some influential people inside it, I just call it as I see it, from afar. I saw similar things is the coup against Dilma in Brazil (sponsored by you can guess who), and in many others. The methods used differ depending on the situation but there are similarities: the media campaigns based on outright lies, leaks, well-timed judicial attacks, seizing the moment when the target may be temporarily unpopular, etc.

    That people in that "intelligence community" turned their tools of the trade against their own elected government should have you very much worried. More so than trump.
     
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  16. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Deity

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    Um did you read about the last century? Maybe read it? I mean did you just wake up after like 150 year nap? If this was an inside operation it was sloppy and failed miserably. Which catches conspiracy theorists in that awful trap of "is my enemy a super genius? or are they just that stupid?" conundrum. More likely people were doing what they thought was right and some of it melted in their hands and some of it hit home.
     
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  17. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Granted, they've been playing politics internally for nearly a century now, starting with Hoover. But (unless you favor some of the hypothesis on the JFK murder...) it's a new line they're crossing now, this intensity of campaign against an already elected president.
    By all means let civil servants conspire to do regime change if the government is trying to suspend democracy. Or betray the country out in fact. But it's obvious those, when invoked, are excuses. The process of this fight, though, does raise the danger of one day somehow coming to that scenario. That won't be good for anyone. If their issue is one of seeing incompetence, it is never a reason for trying some kind of palace coup. That must be fought politically, with truth.
     
  18. Broken_Erika

    Broken_Erika Nothing

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    Except that Trump, republicans and their supporters have proven time and time again to be impervious to truth.
     
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  19. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Deity

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    and obviously I don;t buy your line of bullfeathers your selling here or generally elsewhere on these forums where you are always able to reduce complex geopolitical situations into Machiavellian plots of surprisingly few people trying to rule the world.

     
    hobbsyoyo likes this.
  20. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Try using the actual truth, for a change. I said it then and maintain it, Sanders would have won that election that Hillary lost.

    You are free to believe what you wish. I usually list my reasons when I post an opinion.
     
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