holy hell that Ukraine stuff

hot takes

  • trump gonna get impeached

    Votes: 11 29.7%
  • trump gonna get removed from office

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • trump gonna get reelected

    Votes: 8 21.6%
  • trump gonna lose election

    Votes: 4 10.8%
  • joe biden gonna win primary

    Votes: 6 16.2%
  • joe biden gonna lose primary

    Votes: 10 27.0%
  • holy hell

    Votes: 7 18.9%
  • holy smokes

    Votes: 7 18.9%
  • holy christ on a cracker

    Votes: 9 24.3%
  • meh

    Votes: 6 16.2%
  • huh?

    Votes: 2 5.4%
  • im pissed perfs had the polls close in a week so i couldn't be cagey and vote after the dust settled

    Votes: 3 8.1%
  • good thinking perfs on the polls timeout

    Votes: 6 16.2%
  • this is all mere prelude to giant death robots taking over

    Votes: 11 29.7%
  • it's rigged i tell you rigged

    Votes: 5 13.5%
  • why aren't you talking more about biden perfs it's really about biden

    Votes: 1 2.7%
  • trump is criminal scum

    Votes: 19 51.4%
  • joe biden is criminal scum

    Votes: 9 24.3%
  • hunter biden is criminal scum

    Votes: 8 21.6%
  • mashed potatoes and gravy

    Votes: 11 29.7%
  • mashed potatoes alone

    Votes: 6 16.2%
  • gravy alone

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • neither mashed potatoes nor gravy

    Votes: 2 5.4%
  • [insert poll option here]

    Votes: 7 18.9%

  • Total voters
    37
  • Poll closed .
totally false. Almost the exact opposite of the truth, really. You can read it yourself.
Again, you're posting stuff with different dates. Here are alternative facts from the scum at ABC including a separate indictment dated months earlier. I thought there might have been two. The Mueller report itself has them in different sections.

So you'd have us believe CrowdStrike (and multiple other companies) fabricated a bunch of computer forensics and no one ever noticed, despite so many people being involved and re-analyzing their data. Or, more likely, you'd have us believe these companies and the FBI and the rest of the IC and even many of Trump's allies in Congress (who've seen all the classified evidence) are all in cahoots to bring him down. And the FBI even began preparing for this coup in 2014 (Paul Manafort starts being investigated) and 2015 (FBI learns the DNC has been hacked, long before Trump becomes the nominee). Not buying it.

I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill and letting Trump lead us down rabbit holes that don't matter.
No; in fact when this came up in an earlier discussion here I expressed a preference for Crowdstrike over the insider leak theory. However, I like how the sequence of events draws attention to how differently Obama's FBI treated the two campaigns in 2016. If Trump's FBI behaves like that in 2020, you guys are going to go absolutely berserk. How dare the Republicans behave like Democrats.

That phrase about the molehill sort of describes the entire Russia narrative. I think much within the story is trivial, but the meta— the showdown between Trump and his allies versus the deep state and its allies— is breathtaking. It is a molehill that has legitimately evolved into a mountain.
 
Heya, aren't you supposed to be using the quote function brave Sir Tim? You're such a hypocrite

I did. I was talking to Zelig, so I quoted Zelig. When I pointed out the quote function to you it didn't occur to me that you would need an explanation for how to use it. Overestimated your intelligence I guess, though given what I think about your intelligence that is really hard to believe.
 
Again, you're posting stuff with different dates. Here are alternative facts from the scum at ABC including a separate indictment dated months earlier. I thought there might have been two. The Mueller report itself has them in different sections.
I edited my post before you responded to say "if we're talking about the same batch of indictments."

No; in fact when this came up in an earlier discussion here I expressed a preference for Crowdstrike over the insider leak theory. However, I like how the sequence of events draws attention to how differently Obama's FBI treated the two campaigns in 2016. If Trump's FBI behaves like that in 2020, you guys are going to go absolutely berserk. How dare the Republicans behave like Democrats.
Oh, I see. Really didn't know what your position was. But still don't really see how it was that big of a deal or special treatment. The whole way it was handled, from how much access the DNC provided to the role of third parties to what the FBI was content with accepting, seems really mundane to me. But if the RNC gets hacked at some point and the media loses it because the RNC doesn't cart hundreds of servers down to Quantico, I'll give you this one.

(...though I do see a huge difference between media fake news hysteria and fake news hysteria coming straight from the WH and guiding foreign policy)

That phrase about the molehill sort of describes the entire Russia narrative. I think much within the story is trivial, but the meta— the showdown between Trump and his allies versus the deep state and its allies— is breathtaking. It is a molehill that has legitimately evolved into a mountain.
Sure, I kind of agree with this. I've been bearish on Russia stuff since 2016, though I'm buying where you're selling. I would quibble with the intentionality. I see it more as a taxoplasma of rage thing going on.
 
If I said your motive for posting was A) and you knew it was B), you wouldn't care what I thought either.

I would care if everyone was dismissing me out of hand because I came across as a angry crackpot. I'd either adjust my posting style to get people to stop dismissing me, or stop posting.
 
I did. I was talking to Zelig, so I quoted Zelig. When I pointed out the quote function to you it didn't occur to me that you would need an explanation for how to use it. Overestimated your intelligence I guess, though given what I think about your intelligence that is really hard to believe.

You said it was chicken to snipe at you without a notification, quoting Zelig while sniping at me doesn't notify me.

I would care if everyone was dismissing me out of hand because I came across as a angry crackpot. I'd either adjust my posting style to get people to stop dismissing me, or stop posting.

I certainly dont want to be dismissed by people I respect, what posting style would you recommend? Perhaps these examples will meet with your approval:

"Overestimated your intelligence I guess, though given what I think about your intelligence that is really hard to believe."

"Your revisionist history is ******* abhorrent because you're a dumpster fire politically."

"Your posts are predictable. Although you claim to be a libertarian you always defend Trump and can't fault anything he does. Although you claim to not be a racist whenever the police shoot a black person you are always making excuses for them. Not just sometimes, always."

"You really don't need to shill for Trump, you know. He's perfectly capable of lying through his teeth on his own"

No anger there... I suppose I could insult people, nasty and rude seem to be popular. What do you think?
 
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I suppose I could insult people, nasty and rude seem to be popular. What do you think?

Those aren't directed at "people" in general. Every single one of them was directed specifically at you, by people who generally aren't nasty and rude to much of anyone else. And no doubt every one of them garnered plenty of likes. Being nasty and rude to you is popular, incredibly popular actually, not being nasty and rude in general. Here's something else all those posts have in common...they are widely accepted hereabouts as true. Your posts are predictable. In said posts you routinely present wildly revised history, and it is abhorrent. The most likely conclusions to draw from that, since we can't by rule just dismiss you as a troll, would be that you are a dumpster fire politically or a shill for Trump, which is pretty much the same thing.

Nothing in the way you are treated is likely to change, because your posts show no indication that they are going to change. At this point even if you tried to change it up you have established such a detailed picture of yourself for most people that it would likely take years to change how you are perceived. So I think you should pack up and leave. I know you asked Zelig, not me, but I'd be surprised if he, or much of anyone else, disagrees.
 
Those aren't directed at "people" in general. Every single one of them was directed specifically at you, by people who generally aren't nasty and rude to much of anyone else. And no doubt every one of them garnered plenty of likes. Being nasty and rude to you is popular, incredibly popular actually, not being nasty and rude in general. Here's something else all those posts have in common...they are widely accepted hereabouts as true. Your posts are predictable. In said posts you routinely present wildly revised history, and it is abhorrent. The most likely conclusions to draw from that, since we can't by rule just dismiss you as a troll, would be that you are a dumpster fire politically or a shill for Trump, which is pretty much the same thing.

Nothing in the way you are treated is likely to change, because your posts show no indication that they are going to change. At this point even if you tried to change it up you have established such a detailed picture of yourself for most people that it would likely take years to change how you are perceived. So I think you should pack up and leave. I know you asked Zelig, not me, but I'd be surprised if he, or much of anyone else, disagrees.

You're not nasty and rude in general? I've seen how you treat other people here, nasty and rude is your posting style to anyone who disagrees with you too much or sets you off for some other reason. I've seen you in action, Tim. You're a stalker and you're doing it in this thread. You've admitted to following posters around with insults to make them leave and you've admitted trolling other websites.

You did the same thing to Jay and he rarely comes by any more, did you get any likes for that? Did your pals give a hooray for Tim? And you think I want to join your circle jerk? As for the likes, its the same people over and over. Thats yer echo chamber. Did you ever think about that when deciding most everyone agrees with you?

Your posts are predictable.
Although you claim to be a libertarian you always defend Trump and can't fault anything he does.
Although you claim to not be a racist whenever the police shoot a black person you are always making excuses for them. Not just sometimes, always.

None of that is true (aside from being libertarian, albeit impure) but he got likes. I'm supposed to be impressed by your little club of boot likers? I'm probably less predictable than most of you, I took the side of Omar and Kaep when Trump went after them, so did you predict that AQ? Was that evidence of my racism? No, your evidence is I've never blamed cops for killing black people.

Now if I was that detached from the truth the moderators would be all over me. Hell, I cant even post an article about how the USA became involved in the Syrian war without LM accusing me of trolling by criticizing Hillary in every post (sorry, had to get my dose of Hillary into the post). Actually I dont criticize her that much, mostly I'm directing my criticism at people who think Trump is the devil but give a collective yawn when the Democrats are exposed as hypocrites.

I should leave because of how you perceive me? Where did you get the idea I'm here to be your friend? I wouldn't even like you if I agreed with your politics. I'm here to argue for what I believe just like everyone else. And I believe Democrats are being hypocritical for condemning Trump for 'crimes' his political opponents also committed... and thats why there are people who dont like my 'posting style'.

If I joined the echo chamber and spent all my time criticizing Trump and ignoring the Democrats, my posting style would get many likes. Its as simple as that... People can disagree with your club, but not too much. And for God's sake, dont ask the Pharisees about their fine glass houses.
 
Moderator Action: So we've noticed a distressing trend for these threads to go off topic lately and turn into a free for all where some people gang up on others, for no other reason it seems than to score points at who can be the most politically correct/righteous, or otherwise a generally good person. We have been relatively quiet on this front so far, but no longer. This is supposed to be a place of relatively free discussion, with everyone allowed to express a viewpoint as long as it is within the rules. The point of a thread is to discuss a topic, not each other. If you want to discuss each other, then I suggest that you do it in PM. An open thread is not the place to throw insults around. Remember that there are flaming rules.

Posting that you want someone gone is not nice, but neither is posting the same tired argument, simply rephrased, over and over and over again. It's frustrating to other people and they in turn lash out as we are seeing now. For those of you lashing out, please remember that this forum is inclusive of everyone, no matter their viewpoint (within reason). If you object to someone that strenuously, may I suggest the ignore list?

If I haven't made my point clear by now, the lot of you are to stop bickering immediately and go back to discussing the topic of the thread. If the subject has been exhausted, then tell me and I will close the thread for you. And if this bickering continues, the thread will be closed and infractions handed out. Thank you.

Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
It looks like the FBI did request physical access. However, Comey also testified that what they were given was appropriate and that sounds about right to me. Malware is software, (a) residing on disk, (b) in memory, and (c) often using network I/O (we're told this "Cozy Bear" aka "APT29" malware was sending stolen data somewhere). It is a fact that CrowdStrike gave the FBI disk and memory images (a & b) and network logs (c). That is good enough. As for the claim "they accepted a report from Crowdstrike as a substitute for their own forensics", that's wrong. I think you're conflating "forensics" with "report" or "analysis."

So you'd have us believe CrowdStrike (and multiple other companies) fabricated a bunch of computer forensics and no one ever noticed, despite so many people being involved and re-analyzing their data. Or, more likely, you'd have us believe these companies and the FBI and the rest of the IC and even many of Trump's allies in Congress (who've seen all the classified evidence) are all in cahoots to bring him down. And the FBI even began preparing for this coup in 2014 (Paul Manafort starts being investigated) and 2015 (FBI learns the DNC has been hacked, long before Trump becomes the nominee). Not buying it.

No, it was not appropriate. It was, in fact a draft. Read the famous Mueller report. Its not good enough. There is such a thing as a chain of custody for evidence, and there is the requirement of evidence in the first place. A draft report from a partisan company (they're political supporters of Clinton) paid to serve the political party who conveniently wants to play the victim and spin a story is not evidence. Not even that existed. In a court case those claims by Crowdstrike would be thrown out. But it was a political case...

Have you checked on what happened to those few claims by Mueller that made it to court? Flynn is claiming, successfully so far, prosecution misconduct against him. The famous russian troll farm showed up in court and afaik the prosecution is still refusing to present evidence for its claims about it.

The whole thing was a fabrication to protect those within the intelligence community that did interfere with the 2016 election, certain that by supporting the to-be victorious candidate they would be rewarded. A sure bet...
 
No, it was not appropriate. It was, in fact a draft. Read the famous Mueller report. Its not good enough. There is such a thing as a chain of custody for evidence, and there is the requirement of evidence in the first place. A draft report from a partisan company (they're political supporters of Clinton) paid to serve the political party who conveniently wants to play the victim and spin a story is not evidence. Not even that existed. In a court case those claims by Crowdstrike would be thrown out. But it was a political case...

Have you checked on what happened to those few claims by Mueller that made it to court? Flynn is claiming, successfully so far, prosecution misconduct against him. The famous russian troll farm showed up in court and afaik the prosecution is still refusing to present evidence for its claims about it.

The whole thing was a fabrication to protect those within the intelligence community that did interfere with the 2016 election, certain that by supporting the to-be victorious candidate they would be rewarded. A sure bet...

I can't even keep up with how fast you guys spin these webs of self deceit. Never the most obvious answer is it boys?
 
Oh, I see. Really didn't know what your position was. But still don't really see how it was that big of a deal or special treatment.

It wasn't fair of me not to say so.

I leaned in favor of Crowdstrike (slightly at least) in postmortem on mueller #693.

No, it was not appropriate. It was, in fact a draft. Read the famous Mueller report. Its not good enough. There is such a thing as a chain of custody for evidence, and there is the requirement of evidence in the first place. A draft report from a partisan company (they're political supporters of Clinton) paid to serve the political party who conveniently wants to play the victim and spin a story is not evidence. Not even that existed. In a court case those claims by Crowdstrike would be thrown out. But it was a political case...

Yeah I have almost no trouble thinking that Crowdstrike can keep a secret for the DNC. My issue would be that it would be very technically difficult to lay a trail of breadcrumbs for the FBI, assuming as Truthy has indicated that the FBI eventually got a shot at the server a year later. I really don't know who to believe in all this.

I agree that Mueller's other indictments make the issue a complete mess. The Manafort case is solid but unrelated to Trump. The indictments of troll farms and GRU seem to have been entirely for show, since they were unwilling to prosecute, and also unrelated to Trump. The indictments on Stone, Gates, Flynn, and Papadopolous are hot garbage. Some one-time FBI and CIA people, plus some judges, should have hell to pay on these, but I won't hold my breath.
 
I can't even keep up with how fast you guys spin these webs of self deceit. Never the most obvious answer is it boys?

I don't even have a horse on that race, except a hope (small one) of seeing Sanders elected and solving some problems there in a way that may set a good example for the rest of the world. On Trump's war with the so-called "intelligence community", some influential people inside it, I just call it as I see it, from afar. I saw similar things is the coup against Dilma in Brazil (sponsored by you can guess who), and in many others. The methods used differ depending on the situation but there are similarities: the media campaigns based on outright lies, leaks, well-timed judicial attacks, seizing the moment when the target may be temporarily unpopular, etc.

That people in that "intelligence community" turned their tools of the trade against their own elected government should have you very much worried. More so than trump.
 
That people in that "intelligence community" turned their tools of the trade against their own elected government should have you very much worried. More so than trump.

Um did you read about the last century? Maybe read it? I mean did you just wake up after like 150 year nap? If this was an inside operation it was sloppy and failed miserably. Which catches conspiracy theorists in that awful trap of "is my enemy a super genius? or are they just that stupid?" conundrum. More likely people were doing what they thought was right and some of it melted in their hands and some of it hit home.
 
Granted, they've been playing politics internally for nearly a century now, starting with Hoover. But (unless you favor some of the hypothesis on the JFK murder...) it's a new line they're crossing now, this intensity of campaign against an already elected president.
By all means let civil servants conspire to do regime change if the government is trying to suspend democracy. Or betray the country out in fact. But it's obvious those, when invoked, are excuses. The process of this fight, though, does raise the danger of one day somehow coming to that scenario. That won't be good for anyone. If their issue is one of seeing incompetence, it is never a reason for trying some kind of palace coup. That must be fought politically, with truth.
 
Granted, they've been playing politics internally for nearly a century now, starting with Hoover. But (unless you favor some of the hypothesis on the JFK murder...) it's a new line they're crossing now, this intensity of campaign against an already elected president.
By all means let civil servants conspire to do regime change if the government is trying to suspend democracy. Or betray the country out in fact. But it's obvious those, when invoked, are excuses. The process of this fight, though, does raise the danger of one day somehow coming to that scenario. That won't be good for anyone. If their issue is one of seeing incompetence, it is never a reason for trying some kind of palace coup. That must be fought politically, with truth.

and obviously I don;t buy your line of bullfeathers your selling here or generally elsewhere on these forums where you are always able to reduce complex geopolitical situations into Machiavellian plots of surprisingly few people trying to rule the world.

 
Except that Trump, republicans and their supporters have proven time and time again to be impervious to truth.

Try using the actual truth, for a change. I said it then and maintain it, Sanders would have won that election that Hillary lost.

and obviously I don;t buy your line of bullfeathers your selling here or generally elsewhere on these forums where you are always able to reduce complex geopolitical situations into Machiavellian plots of surprisingly few people trying to rule the world.

You are free to believe what you wish. I usually list my reasons when I post an opinion.
 
That people in that "intelligence community" turned their tools of the trade against their own elected government should have you very much worried. More so than trump.
To be honest, the US intelligence community seems to have unnervingly well behaved toward Trump. There was legitimate concern based on Trumps behavior and statements, along with the awareness that Russia mounted a larger than expected intelligence operation in the US election. We had Trump trying to pressure the FBI director to drop investigations of Michael Flynn - who was up past his eyeballs in shady foreign business dealings, including with Russia- and after he fired Comey, he told the Russians in an Oval Office meeting he did it because of 'the Russia thing'. The Special Counsel's office ran a very tight ship -the frequent 'leaks' almost certainly came from the defense- and used a very conservative interpretation of the law and Nixon-era OLC memos to even offer an opinion on whether Trump engaged in obstruction of justice - while at the same time asserting Trump or his campaign did not 'collude' with the Russian government or parastatal figures.
If the Russia/obstruction investigation had its origins in an attempt to oust Trump through inflated claims, then you should be championing Mueller as someone who did not do what the security services wanted. When the Mueller report was made public, there were very conservative lawyers (such as Paul Rosenweig) directly criticizing Mueller for his legal arguments that he could not offer an opinion on obstruction.

I know I've interacted with you often enough, and I hope you remember I have a passing familiarity with the skullduggery the security services can get up to, such as with MI5 in Northern Ireland and the 'Wilson plots', western intelligence activities in the Congo, and some of the findings of the Church Committee. It isn't like I don't know the things security services can get up to.
 
If the Russia/obstruction investigation had its origins in an attempt to oust Trump through inflated claims, then you should be championing Mueller as someone who did not do what the security services wanted. When the Mueller report was made public, there were very conservative lawyers (such as Paul Rosenweig) directly criticizing Mueller for his legal arguments that he could not offer an opinion on obstruction.

But I do not think that was ever a goal. It developed, imo, as an ass-covering exercise!

I'll describe my interpretation of the whole mess. Take it or leave it, it's an opinion. It started with some highly placed and/or ambitious bureaucrats (think access to power and ambitions of upward mobility) interfering in the 2016 election on behalf of Hillary Clinton. It shouldn't have been necessary, but boot-lickers will be boot-lickers. And be rewarded for it. They made up the Steele dossier and did the usual thing in american politics, red-baiting, on the premise that Russia continues to be the red enemy, whatever its actual government. Taking bribes from arabs is good, from ukranians might be good or bad, from russians is bad... :rolleyes: obviously they don't believe that, or that such bribes buy much influence when they do happen. What they do believe is that money for campaigns or personal expenses is convenient, and that attacking enemies over it is also convenient. With connivance from the media one can take money from the "good" foreigners and accuse the rival of taking money from the "bad" foreigners. Whether or not it is true.

These IC bureaucrats were engaged in that old american tradition, nothing new about it. What was new is that they miscalculated badly. The side they so openly bet on (just read those text messages...) unexpectedly lost the election, and they were in deep, with a resentful winner vocal about having their actions investigated. Some of which were no doubt illegal. The kind of thing you get rewarded for if your political master wins, but fired or worse if he loses! Selective prosecution has always been a thing, they know it because their jobs involve doing it to other people.
Then they panicked! Trump had to be stopped before he could go after them. They doubled down with the accusations, and sold it to a DNC still controlled by the Hillary faction as a means to cut short Trump's presidency. The idea of the impeachment got going. Along with, initially, even one of attempting to prevent the electoral college from formally electing Trump. More rational thinkers in the Democratic Party would have told them to take a turn. But Hillary was also scared (the lock her up election talk, that backfired for Trump...), and Obama resentful. They went with it, or at least didn't quash it right away. Hence Mueller: if he could somehow find something to charge Trump with, it might deliver an impeachment. Depending on the popularity of the president, or course, never can such palace coups carried out against a popular one. If it did not, at least it had the advantage of keeping him off-balance during the whole time it lasted. He couldn't take revenge against those bureaucrats because that would be depicted as "interfering with the investigation". He couldn't have Hillary's own bribe-taking investigated because that would cause an escalation of the attacks against himself. When it did look like the DOJ might move to have Biden junior's profits from political connections investigated, impeachment was finally deployed. Directly because of that issue, the message was clear.

They are not expecting to really topple Trump, the DNC at least I think never were. Some of the idiot bureaucrats who entangled themselves in assisting Hillary might, they're the type to overrate themselves. But I'm fairly sure that for most it's a cynical damage control exercise, to keep Trump off-balance, prevent him from attacking. To a limited degree, it worked. But with the tremendous damage of having two lasting consequences (probably factored in and accepted):
1) An enduring strong partisan division in the country.
2) A Trump that fed up and realizing he's been hit with everything available already, will strike back and be very much vengeful about it. If he wins the 2020 election, then expect that. He won't be hobbled by lack of familiarity with Washington politics, or the people available for use. Expect some people to move out of the country abruptly.
And an unforeseen one, gradual but noticeable loss of efficacy of the usual propaganda. You can't use too much of it without devaluing it. Peter and the wold come to mind...


This was no great conspiracy. It was a product of several accidents, combined and snowballing. A surprise result in an election. Careerism. Opportunism. Individual hatreds. Parties adrift looking for some flag not inconvenient for the donor class to rally under. And a media that realized it could get more viewers the more circus-like politics were.
 
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