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holy hell that Ukraine stuff

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Perfection, Sep 24, 2019.

?

hot takes

Poll closed Oct 1, 2019.
  1. trump gonna get impeached

    11 vote(s)
    29.7%
  2. trump gonna get removed from office

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. trump gonna get reelected

    8 vote(s)
    21.6%
  4. trump gonna lose election

    4 vote(s)
    10.8%
  5. joe biden gonna win primary

    6 vote(s)
    16.2%
  6. joe biden gonna lose primary

    10 vote(s)
    27.0%
  7. holy hell

    7 vote(s)
    18.9%
  8. holy smokes

    7 vote(s)
    18.9%
  9. holy christ on a cracker

    9 vote(s)
    24.3%
  10. meh

    6 vote(s)
    16.2%
  11. huh?

    2 vote(s)
    5.4%
  12. im pissed perfs had the polls close in a week so i couldn't be cagey and vote after the dust settled

    3 vote(s)
    8.1%
  13. good thinking perfs on the polls timeout

    6 vote(s)
    16.2%
  14. this is all mere prelude to giant death robots taking over

    11 vote(s)
    29.7%
  15. it's rigged i tell you rigged

    5 vote(s)
    13.5%
  16. why aren't you talking more about biden perfs it's really about biden

    1 vote(s)
    2.7%
  17. trump is criminal scum

    19 vote(s)
    51.4%
  18. joe biden is criminal scum

    9 vote(s)
    24.3%
  19. hunter biden is criminal scum

    8 vote(s)
    21.6%
  20. mashed potatoes and gravy

    11 vote(s)
    29.7%
  21. mashed potatoes alone

    6 vote(s)
    16.2%
  22. gravy alone

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  23. neither mashed potatoes nor gravy

    2 vote(s)
    5.4%
  24. [insert poll option here]

    7 vote(s)
    18.9%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Them attacking manafort was also defending themselves, so it's hard to figure out if it was interference. I agreed way early on that we need a system that can investigate people like Hunter. It is a damn shame that Trump proved himself as being unworthy. He doesn't get the benefit of the doubt.

    Trump loyalists. These are people that don't care that he crashed an HIV charity for kids, and tried to take credit. They don't care that he ran a fraudulent charity, or that he defrauded people with a fraudulent University. Or that he tweeted racist statistics as a candidate. Or that he refused to release his taxes.

    If his kids are using their positions to increase corruption, his base doesn't care.
     
    Estebonrober likes this.
  2. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Deity

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    I agree with this and honestly want it ruled on as well because if this is not the case this country is in more trouble than I thought.
     
  3. Truthy

    Truthy Idle

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    This article is pretty good and I think covers all of it. Berzerker has linked to it a few times in this thread, but I'm not sure he's done more than read the headline.

    In short, this now-infamous DNC lady Alexandra Chalupa and Ukraine's anti-corruption bureau (NABU) helped get Paul Manafort (Trump's campaign chair) arrested. And like the entire Ukrainian government assumed Trump would lose, so they snubbed him a few times. So it's a little sketchy. But they don't claim anything like "Ukraine colluded with the DNC to frame Russia and Trump"--what Trump and Berzerker have been saying (and that's also probably what the BBC was saying had been "widely debunked"). Also, Vogel (one of the authors) has written millions of times he thinks that's an extremely stupid theory. Guessing Berzerker doesn't realize that when he links to this article thinking it backs him up.
     
  4. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    Giuliani was back in Ukraine this week trying to dig up more dirt on Biden. The normalization of this sort of corruption could be the most lasting legacy of this criminal administration. It is now OK to solicit foreign interference in our elections to help your side.
     
  5. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Deity

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    I've read that specific article like 4 times trying to divine why republicans link to it so much and I still can;t figure it out. Manafort was the essence of a corrupt political buffoon and got busted and called out for it. End of story.
     
  6. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Veteran of 1000 psycic wars

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    They have no other defense, so they link to things and hope no one follows the link. "Links build credibility no matter what" is the flip side of "citation required." The people who link things that don't actually support their position are the same ones who will demand a link to a weather site to prove it rained if you say 'Trump left muddy footprints all the way from the murder scene to the White House door.'
     
    Sommerswerd likes this.
  7. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    Maybe someone else can work it out, but retroactive means going back in time to change the legal status of something in the past. Now if it was legal for Obama and the laws haven't changed, it should be legal for Trump, and if its illegal for Trump then it was illegal for Obama.

    I'll be glad to help, Ukraine interfered in our election. I believe John Durham is investigating the extent of that interference.

    I thought you wanted proof the billion $ resulted in personal gain. Long before Trump asked Ukraine to investigate their interference in our election the Obama administration was handing out a billion $ to fire a prosecutor who was looking into our Ukrainian friends. These people helped the Clinton campaign, they took down Manafort and probably helped Steele with his dossier.

    It isn't hard, it was interference... their motives dont matter. I'm sure Russia interfered because they saw Clinton as a threat and were defending themselves from what they see as the continuing encroachment of Nato and the west peeling away their allies.

    The Democrats and Biden provided that cover. They were in Ukraine spreading our taxes around buying friends who helped them in the election before Trump asked Ukraine to investigate that interference.

    Didn't I quote it?

    I dont know if Ukraine hacked the Dems to help them cover up for an internal leak and frame Russia, but its possible. I never claimed the article supported that theory, I said it showed collusion between the Dems and Ukrainians to interfere in the election. But at least 'a little sketchy' is more truthy than claiming it was debunked ;)

    Read it again, the article shows the Dems were working with Ukrainians before Manafort became an issue. It looks like you're okay with Ukrainians helping to bring Manafort down because he was corrupt, but when Trump asks Ukraine to investigate corruption or Russia to publish emails exposing corrupt Democrats its the end of democracy, Mom and apple pie.
     
  8. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    Manafort has always been a shady crook, and any presidential candidate with even a passing familiarity with basic human decency would have sent him back to political Siberia as soon as they could have.
    Perhaps hiring the guy who lobbied for Ferdinand Marcos, Mobutu Sese Seko, Ukrainian kleptocrats, and Angolan blood-diamond traffickers was ALWAYS A TERRIBLE IDEA.
     
    Socrates99 and El_Machinae like this.
  9. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    That doesn't change the fact the Dems were soliciting Ukrainian help interfering in our election before Manafort got involved.
     
  10. Truthy

    Truthy Idle

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    I'm pretty sure you've explicitly said you think that's what happened. Or at least strongly implied it. And yes, I do think the stuff in the article is "a little sketchy." And I think Trump's military aid shenanigans with Ukraine were extraordinarily sketchy
    Roll credits

    edit: thanks for the 500th like @El_Machinae
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
    El_Machinae likes this.
  11. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    Where did I say the article claimed Ukraine hacked the Dems to frame the Russians? You accuse me of just reading headlines to articles I've linked and quoted and you're relying on pretty sure recollections? Just quote me. Oh wait, you did:

    "I dont know if Ukraine hacked the Dems to help them cover up for an internal leak and frame Russia, but its possible. I never claimed the article supported that theory, I said it showed collusion between the Dems and Ukrainians to interfere in the election."

    Now the reason I think thats possible is because it makes sense, if you're John Podesta and you find out someone leaked your emails to wikileaks, what would you do? Shift the blame, make the story about someone else, keep red baiting Hillary's opponents. Dont let the FBI have the evidence, ask your friends at Crowdstrike to do the analysis and tell everyone it was the Russians and Trump is Putin's puppet. Yeah, thats the ticket... Its possible, I'll leave the door open far enough to take a peak.

    So you think the article is wrong? I thought you were calling the collusion a little sketchy, but you seem to be claiming the allegation of collusion made in the article is a little sketchy. Are you saying the Politico article was debunked too?

    How do you feel about Biden waving a billion $ at Ukraine to fire a prosecutor for refusing to investigate his son's company? Isn't that the line of BS the Dems tossed at us? Yeah, that damn prosecutor was too easy on Burisma! Fire him! Or maybe he wasn't easy enough. Maybe he was looking into the money pouring into the country from the west and we didn't like that so we got rid of him. We sent a message to the other prosecutors, dont mess with us or Joe will show up with a billion $ to fire them too.

    edit: isn't Crowdstrike a Ukrainian company? Isn't that why Trump was asking the Ukrainian Prez to do us a favor and look into it, maybe locate the server he thinks might be hidden in Ukraine?

    While I'm on the subject of John Podesta:



    America the Great!
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
  12. FriendlyFire

    FriendlyFire Codex WMDicanious

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    Everytime you post a Jimmy Dore video I want to to remember what he thinks of Trump and Trump supporters.
    Just keep that in your mind exactly what Trump and hes supporters are.



     
  13. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Moderator Action: This is not a video wars thread. Please keep any accompanying videos brief and to the point.
     
  14. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Deity

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    It really really doesn't.
     
  15. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    You thought wrong, My question was.........
    Do you have any proof that one was dependent on the other? I have yet to see it. We have that proof with Trump.

    I'm still waiting for you to provide it.
     
  16. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    They took down Manafort for internal reasons. If my husband was beating me, and I slipped evidence of his fraud to his business rival, then you know why I did it.

    Also, test your intuitions of timelines. Do you remember The Ledger being slipped out before or after Republicans were defending theTrump Tower meeting as legit?
     
  17. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    Nancy Pelosi wants to impeach Trump for a phone call to Ukraine when she refused to impeach Bush for war crimes. Huh? Oh yeah, Nancy Pelosi is complicit in those war crimes. She knew we were torturing people and did nothing.

    you asked me about personal gain:

    "you have no proof that Obama used government funds to bribe a foreign government for personal gain."

    A billion $ bribe resulted in the personal gain of many people, including Hunter Biden and his boss. I already explained what Obama would have gained, at a minimum, his legacy. A Trump win killed it. Did you know Burisma was meeting with our State Dept around the same time Ukraine fired that prosecutor? The VP's son's company was lobbying the Obama administration for better treatment, they got it. Then they told us they fired the prosecutor because he wasn't prosecuting Burisma. lolwut?

    Now, your argument appears to be: it was okay for Obama/Biden to bribe Ukraine because it served a policy goal. Well, then Trump can bribe Ukraine for his policy goal of investigating Ukrainian interference in the 2016 election. Didn't the Obama administration and Clinton campaign use the policy goal of investigating Russian interference as an excuse to spy on Trump?

    The article said Chalupa started working to gather dirt on Trump in late '15 and/or early '16 - the same time frame the Clinton campaign was telling the media to promote Trump. That isn't a coincidence. When did Manafort get taken down with the black ledger? The summer of '16... The Dems had already spent months looking into Trump.

    The guy who disclosed the ledger said he did it to nail Trump. That wasn't internal politics, it was about helping Clinton win. Regardless, it interfered in our election and there were Ukrainians opposed to getting involved but many people in the country were dependent on Obama and Biden and the gravy train we were funding.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
  18. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    As I recall, she was against impeaching Trump at all. Then again, if the US actually cared about war crimes, they'd have closed Guantanamo a long time ago.
     
  19. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    El_Machinae likes this.
  20. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Well, of course he does. Liberal tears and all.
     

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