Homophobia associated with higher rates of psychoticism

[Ajidica]

They implemented these policies.

Feel free to go through the highlighted points one by one and explain how they aren't Socialist policies then.

The Nazi program of the early 20's was an eclectic grab-bag of the anti-Weimar groups. You cannot use the term 'left' and 'right' with any degree of certitude in early Weimar Germany because the traditional point by which German political parties oriented themselves -the Kaiser- had disappeared. The political landscape was still in the process of being reshuffled up until the Enabling Act. It says a lot about how unsettled the political landscape was that the most stable government the Weimar Republic had was the "Grand Coalition" between the Social Democrats, Center Party, and the Liberal Democrats.
Imagine how unsettled the American political landscape if all of a sudden the GOP just disappeared. Think that but even worse and you have the political landscape of Weimar Germany.

 

[civman110]

How about you explain how they are, and which points the nazis actually enacted.

All of them. Your turn.

Nice attempt at a copt out by the way.

The Nazi program of the early 20's was an eclectic grab-bag of the anti-Weimar groups. You cannot use the term 'left' and 'right' with any degree of certitude in early Weimar Germany because the traditional point by which German political parties oriented themselves -the Kaiser- had disappeared. The political landscape was still in the process of being reshuffled up until the Enabling Act. It says a lot about how unsettled the political landscape was that the most stable government the Weimar Republic had was the "Grand Coalition" between the Social Democrats, Center Party, and the Liberal Democrats.
Imagine how unsettled the American political landscape if all of a sudden the GOP just disappeared. Think that but even worse and you have the political landscape of Weimar Germany.

That doesn't mean the Nazi Party Platform isn't Socialist.

 

[Ajidica]

All of them. Your turn.

Okay, lets take this one step at a time.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle class; the immediate communalization of the large department stores, which are to be leased at low rates to small tradesmen. We demand the most careful consideration for the owners of small businesses in orders placed by national, state, or community authorities.

When did the Nazi party communalize large department stores?

 

[civman110]

I will answer this, but you are not going to place the entire burden of proof on me. I have provided and extensive amount of information already. You have offered nothing except an opinion.

When did the Nazi party communalize large department stores?

He depicted them in propaganda films negatively and demonized them as "Jewish Materialism" among other things. They never fully nationalized them, but some were nationalized. They we also banned from entering a slew of businesses. They forcefully enacted boycotts in some cases.

Is communalizing large department stores not a Socialist policy?

 

[Ajidica]

Did the Nazis implement it once in power?
Senthro asked which ones the Nazis actually enacted; not which ones were part of their platform in 1920 when the Nazi Party was one of many radical street gangs running about in the ruins of the old Kaiserreich.

 

[civman110]

Give me a break. I gave you my answer.

Answer the question.

Is communalizing large department stores a Socialist policy?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Give me a break. I gave you my answer.

Answer the question.

Is communalizing large department stores a Socialist policy?

I've seen topics dragged pretty far afield, but this is really impressive. Particularly since at least one of the people following you down this path not only recognized the situation, but pointed it out.

 

[Ajidica]

He depicted them in propaganda films negatively and demonized them as "Jewish Materialism" among other things. They never fully nationalized them, but some were nationalized. They we also banned from entering a slew of businesses. They forcefully enacted boycotts in some cases.

Okay, if some department stores were nationalized, surely you can tell me which ones were nationalized?

Is communalizing large department stores not a Socialist policy?

I don't think so.
Post-War Labour never nationalized the department stores, neither -as far as I am aware- did the Socialist parties in Scandinavia.

Even if parts of the Nazi program in 1920 (you know, two years after the end of the First World War and the dissolution of the Kaiserreich) had socialist elements, what of it?

I've seen topics dragged pretty far afield, but this is really impressive. Particularly since at least one of the people following you down this path not only recognized the situation, but pointed it out.

If we are honest, it wasn't like the thread was going in a great direction to begin with.

 

[civman110]

I don't think so.

Nationalising department stores is textbook Socialism.

Now you have about... 10-15 more Socialist policies from the Nazis Official Party Platform to try and explain how it's not Socialist.

How about this one to start:

25. To carry out all the above we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the Reich. Unquestioned authority by the political central Parliament over the entire Reich and over its organizations in general. The establishment of trade and professional organizations to enforce the Reich basic laws in the individual states.

 

[Senethro]

How is that socialist anyway? And even if it was, what would it matter? It might still fall into the category of oxygen breathing. Or one of the lies they made to get power.

Maybe the nazis weren't socialist because their ideology didn't have the aim of improving the life of citizens through collective social actions in a general spirit of egalitarianism?

Hmmmmm.

 

[civman110]

I'm not going to debate nonsensical comments.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I'm not going to debate nonsensical comments.

Good idea. Talking to yourself in public is always a bad move.

 

[Ajidica]

Nationalising department stores is textbook Socialism.

Did I miss the annual Socialist Conspiracy Meeting where they handed out that textbook?
Given that the probably the two best examples of western Democratic Socialism -post war Labour and Scandinavia- didn't make nationalizing department stores a policy (largely because they were still sort of obsesses with the "commanding heights of the economy" with regards to nationalization) then I am a bit suspect as to whether it comprises "textbook socialism".

How about this one to start:

25. To carry out all the above we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the Reich. Unquestioned authority by the political central Parliament over the entire Reich and over its organizations in general. The establishment of trade and professional organizations to enforce the Reich basic laws in the individual states.

Yeah, not seeing anything particularly "socialist" about it. Groups across the political spectrum have had a hankering for strong, authoritarian central governments. Kenyatta-era (and, if we are honest, the entirety to KANU era) Kenya was notorious for putting everything under the authority of KANU and the government. Same went for Zaire.

 

[Senethro]

No, I'm actually going to double down on this. Many of those things you've bolded are things many states do or have done. So, even if the nazis used methods that socialists have also used, that doesn't make them socialist. Or much of anything really.

This is especially true when the aims of the nazis shared little in common with socialists.

I think the aims and intentions of the nazis are kind of important here.

 

[civman110]

Ajidica makes a meaningless comparison, which is proof of absolutely nothing.

No, I'm actually going to double down on this. Many of those things you've bolded are things many states do or have done. So, even if the nazis used methods that socialists have also used, that doesn't make them socialist. Or much of anything really.

So you're saying - "Yeah their policies were Socialist, so what? That doesn't mean they were Socialists."

I actually partially agree with you. I'd say they were evil Socialists. They did follow Socialist policies and they built a Socialist system to govern. Then they used that same Socialist system against their own citizens, well certain citizens. They did take care of the rest in a Socialist way.

This is especially true when the aims of the nazis shared little in common with socialists.

So how do you know a government is going to be good to you after you give them all of the power in a centralized location? How do you know what their intentions are? Or that someone with ill intentions is never going to get elected and use that power against you?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

So how do you know a government is going to be good to you after you give them all of the power in a centralized location? How do you know what their intentions are? Or that someone will ill intentions is never going to get elected?

Does anyone have any reason why anyone should honor these questions by answering them?

 

[Ajidica]

Ajidica makes a meaningless comparison, which is proof of absolutely nothing.

Talking about how the pro-west anti-communist KANU and whatever the grab-bag of half formed ideas that comprised authenticite in Zaire shared the same tendency toward political centralization and authoritarianism present in the Nazi 25 Point Plan of 1920 despite both countries not being socialist (I mean, the slogan of Mobutuism was "Neither Right nor Left" with "or even Center" added to it later on) is meaningless?
I'm confused and slightly sad that my attempt to shoe-horn Cold War Africa into the discussion isn't as fruitful as I would hope.
Ah well, I can go back to talking about how post-war Labour and Austerity.
If you don't like my comparisons to Africa because you aren't as familiar with the history of the region, that's fine. I can shift my comparisons to Latin America if you would prefer. I'm not as good with that region though.

 

[Senethro]

I thought Ajidicas post with its actual reference to historical events was a refreshing upturn for the thread.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Pearls before swine still wind up as pig feces.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I'm calling Godwin on this thread...

Now to go back and see who started it.. and thus "lost" the argument.