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Hong Kong

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Commodore, Aug 14, 2019.

  1. Samson

    Samson Warlord

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    First I wondered if that is necessarily true, for example could China get away with using a nuke against an american carrier group within their own claimed territorial waters?

    Then I wondered if disagreements about the answer to that question could bring about the end of the world.
     
  2. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    If only there was a way to make Chinese goods rise in price, and a person willing to make it happen.
     
  3. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    Even if I were so optimistic about the military's ability to surmount the challenges indicated by these wargames, I would be extremely surprised if all the weaknesses were addressed within a period of a few months.

    If you want to believe that kind of a war is going to be a cakewalk, fine, you can send your children to fight in it. Leave me alone.
     
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  4. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Entangled Retired Moderator Supporter

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    I suspect that an air blast nuke a quarter to half a mile above a carrier would render it mostly useless.

    War with China would settle nothing and only make billions of people miserable if they didn't die. If we want to win the "Democracy is better" war, then we have to actually show that our way provides for better lives for everyone. We need to fix our schools, shelter our homeless and provide proper housing and and healthcare. That is the best way to promote America.

    War on TV and youtube is common these days, but the reality of it is that it is all about killing those least responsible as a way to influence those who don't really care. War has not improved over time. @Commodore your ignorance shines through with every post you make about how we should employ it to get our way.
     
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  5. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    YES
     
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  6. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Warlord

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    This is why I'm not even bothering with trying to counter the heaps and heaps of whishful thinking (to be generous) put forward about a war between China and the US. The authors have a clear ideological bent and are not inclined to listen to facts or reasonable arguments so long as they can thump their chest and rah rah USA! USA!
     
  7. Cheetah

    Cheetah Chieftain

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    Mmmmaybe. Though the US would almost certainly be politically forced to respond with a tactical nuke against a military target themselves. And if no easy target would present itself, they might have to choose a military installation in mainland China. And mmmmmaybe China wouldn't retaliate for that...

    Nuclear weapons have two reasons to exist: Each side/alliance need enough to credibly offer a guaranteed retaliation, and as a last resort in a genocidal war one is losing (think the USSR in 1942).
     
  8. REDY

    REDY Duty Caller

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    I have read some chinese history and everything else then straightforward genocide seems to be above expectations.
    What was shameful was that Britain didnt offer full citizenships.
     
  9. Thorgalaeg

    Thorgalaeg Warlord

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    Would render it mostly vapor since it would be inside the fireball radius for one megaton warhead, which is about the average yield for Chinese stockpile.
     
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  10. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    It's true, tariffs would be a pretty blunt instrument to protect Americans from themselves. The problem is that tariffs are obviously regressive. And there was the massive tax cut for the rich. All told, Trump has been terrifically regressive in his stated goal of protecting Americans from China.
     
  11. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Entangled Retired Moderator Supporter

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    The immediate result of a shut down of Chinese imports would be the collapse of US retail. I wonder how many jobs would be lost? If Wal Mart sales dropped 40% or more, how many people would they fire?
     
  12. Commodore

    Commodore Technology of Peace

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    Except I did not advocate for war. It's like no matter what I write you all just read whatever you believe I should be saying due to your perception of what you think I am advocating.

    I advocated for economic isolation as Cheetah did. But that seems to go completely ignored by just about everyone in this thread.

    I also find it funny that the one person in this thread who has actually been to war is being lectured about war by those who have likely never even held a rifle.

    So we just let China continue doing what they want just to protect our own economies? You remember the rallying cry after 9/11 "freedom isn't free"? Well, this is part of the price of freedom. To allow China to continue to be authoritarian for the sake of economic convenience tells me you value money and wealth more than human rights. Is that really a position you want to try to defend?
     
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  13. FriendlyFire

    FriendlyFire Codex WMDicanious

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    Good thing that you have bonespurs and Neocon in charge of war policy then /s
    No we need a effective way to deal with China, we did not advocate doing nothing to try and correct change Chinese behavior and economic development

    You dont have to engage in an zero sum game of trade war unilaterally with China, like Tariff man is currently doing.
    Besides its not like Trump isnt in bed with the Saudis and Ivan.
     
  14. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Entangled Retired Moderator Supporter

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    I can go back and look, but I think you said that we should engage China in a war they could not win. That is what provoked me into this thread. There are lots of authoritarian countries much worse than China. None are as powerful though. We certainly tried to stop the Soviet Union from being authoritarian and we can see how well that worked. I do not advocate allowing China to govern themselves for the sake of economic security, but because there is no way we can actually change how they govern themselves. It is not a question of human right or money. Chinese human rights are not on the table. If you are going to pick a fight to establish human rights in a distant place, I suggest you start with a simpler scenario. How about central Africa? Syria? I know, Afghanistan! Oh wait.... We have failed in Afghanistan for quite a long while and we had troops and everything already there. Why do you think we will do better in China? Do you want to make China listen to us by bullying them with economic threats? Why do you think that will work? Do you think they are stupid? We have tried to isolate both Russia and NK through sanctions. They have had an effect on those nations economies. Has either changed their policies on human rights? Have our sanctions stopped Russian interference in our elections? You are all rhetoric without any substance or thought behind it.
     
  15. Zelig

    Zelig Beep Boop

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    Most of your posting in this thread is about said hypothetical war.
     
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  16. Zelig

    Zelig Beep Boop

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    The KSA would be my pick.
     
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  17. Commodore

    Commodore Technology of Peace

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    As a response to those who keep talking about war. My OP doesn't mention war at all. The closest I came to it in my OP was mentioning a blockade of Chinese ports.

    We didn't fail in Afghanistan, because turning it into a democracy was not the goal. The goal was to punish the Taliban for refusing to turn over Bin Laden when we demanded it. Our other goal was to find and either capture or kill Bin Laden. Both of those goals were achieved. It was politicians that kept adding these unrealistic nation building goals that a military force has no business trying to achieve.

    If I had my way, I would have withdrawn troops the moment Bin Laden's death had been reported.

    And yeah, you are right that our sanctions haven't changed things in Russia or North Korea, but at least we aren't actively working to make those regimes more powerful like we are with China. I mean, it's not like Russia or North Korea are poised to become the next global hegemon and I would say the sanctions on them play at least a small part in keeping them from increasing their influence and power. In fact, I would argue that without Chinese support propping it up, the North Korean regime wouldn't have survived as long as it has.

    I will admit though that a lot of what I'm saying comes from frustration. I'm tired of seeing people and governments that supposedly stand for liberty and civil rights tolerate the existence of, and even actively support, totalitarian regimes just because those regimes are valuable to us economically. Democratic governments should be adopting a zero tolerance policy for totalitarianism. The right of national sovereignty should not be extended to those governments. Nations like Russia, China, and Saudi Arabia should be international pariahs, not economic partners.
     
  18. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Entangled Retired Moderator Supporter

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    @Commodore

     
  19. Commodore

    Commodore Technology of Peace

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    That doesn't really refute what I said though. It was politicians that set the nation building goals, not the military. In fact, a lot of officers argued against it precisely because militaries are notoriously bad at nation building because that's not their role.
     
  20. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    China keeps getting a break on morals lately in my opinion.
    Here's a reminder of what happens to the enemies of the state:



    https://nypost.com/2019/06/01/chine...for-their-organs-former-hospital-worker-says/
    Scooping out eyes while still alive. :sad:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China


    A painting for the countless people who had their organs harvested.


    Good luck Hong Kong on your extradition treaty for prisoners to be tried in China.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Hong_Kong_anti-extradition_bill_protests
     

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