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Hong Kong

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Commodore, Aug 14, 2019.

  1. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    Cop out.
    So then it's cultural suicide, not cultural genocide? ;)
     
  2. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    So the actions taken are actually to save the Uyghur culture? That the new stance?
     
  3. west india man

    west india man Immortal

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    the comment was specifically denying concentration camps in the US, not anywhere else
     
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  4. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    By me? Nope. (There's no cure for Iodine Deficiency Disorders and the resulting neurological problems acquired before birth.)
    I've said it before...
    There are re-education camps from which people go home. Some in the afternoon, some at the weekend.
    Those implicated in secession movements stay in for longer. Those who advocate violence to achieve secession, or are implicated in the bombing campaigns in Urumqi, or who are linked to the Turkistan Islamic Party won't be going for a very long time, if ever.

    Any ideas of what to do with those people in the region who have various levels of IDD, many of whom can't retain information or finish primary school? You can work out for yourself how many there are from the American journal articles.
    The lack of jobs for Uyghurs and the influx of Han Chinese to the area to fill the available work was a major cause of dissatisfaction and the riots in the region.
    Any ideas? Apart from throwing an iPhone in the bin. ;)
     
  5. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    I'll admit I just dont know what to believe. You make it sound like everything's justified. My own experience in my own country says governments will justify their actions even if it means lying. I've seen it with Gitmo, waterboarding, child seperation, etc.

    You make it sound positive and just for safety while many people say its ethnic cleansing. We've seen this with the Rohingyas, with Muslims in Gujarat and Cashmere, with Palestinians. We saw and continue to see it with many Jewish groups in Muslim and Western countries.

    My knee jerk reaction is to oppose anytime people are ostracized for cultural or religious differences. I am for shaming companies that use forced or cheap labor. All for it. Toss the iPhone into the bin.
     
  6. Commodore

    Commodore Deity

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  7. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    With one of the largest and most ineffective jailing systems in the developed world, there's another source to look for when you're talkin concentration camp. Especially when it's for profit and used for cheap labour and results in losing voting rights

    Sorry, I thought you served.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
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  8. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    I am saying that there are multiple reasons for moving Uyghurs out of that area. Political, environmental, medical, and cultural.
    I'm also suspicious of the motives of the USA and its lackeys. Amazingly, they couldn't buy/coerce a majority in the UNHRC to support their motion. Guess they will have to move onto Plan B.
    On a positive note: at least this time we know that China has WMD. ;)

    If religion is used as a political weapon, the adherents should expect political opposition from those who disagree with that course.
    Then it becomes a numbers and power game, and in China it's obvious who has the upper hand.
     
  9. Commodore

    Commodore Deity

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    I did.
     
  10. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    Cool. Hong Kong ping pong.
     
  11. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    You're playing the apologist of bad people doing bad actions, like those who did it for Stalin's show trials in the 1930s. And having to do it with bad excused because there are no good ones. The chinese are clearly in the wrong here.

    "Xinjiang is doomed because glaciers", the why is China sending in more people, who just happen to be Han, to Xinjiang?

    And now... cretinism? Really? Blame the victim already? "We're harming them for their own good"?

    Xinjiang has always been there in Central Asia. It has no less Iodine now than it had 100 or 500 years ago. Its inhabitants, uneducated, superstitious or "cretin" as you may call them, lived there, reproduced there, and are human beings with a will of their own. If they don't want to be "uneducated", no one should force them to be. If they don't what to "move out" no one should force them to move out. As things stood until recently the area was inhabited by people who enjoyed living as they did and no one there was asking the chinese state to change things. At the most if there was an insurrection the chinese could fight the insurrection. But that's not what they're doing: they're trying to "sinicize "the region instead, by wiping out its population as a distinct one.

    You excuses for chinese oppression there are the same kind of excuses that have been deployed for imperialism, colonialism and slavery in many places. They're abhorrent. It's true that most states have historically oppressed their own populations. That "education", sanitation, and many other modern things, together with the obligation to work for wages, have been forced upon people through state power. The outcome for later generations may be good (or not!) but the process of the people targeted is usually evil. Evil in one or many places does not excuse evil in other places. The history of the modern state everywhere is one of dragging people kicking and screaming, against their will, into "modernity". You can say "the chinese are doing no worse than the [whatever country]". But you cannot say "the chinese are doing good".
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
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  12. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    I think he's just a nihilist with latent authoritarian sympathies. I've long since decided that there is no point talking to him.
     
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  13. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Then I guess you were recruited and brought your private skills in order to further your goal of helping to destabilize the region.
     
  14. west india man

    west india man Immortal

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    I am saying that there are multiple reasons for moving Jews out of that area. Political, environmental, medical, and cultural.
    I'm also suspicious of the motives of the UK and its lackeys. Amazingly, they couldn't buy/coerce a majority in the LoN to support their motion. Guess they will have to move onto Plan B.
    On a positive note: at least this time we know that Germany has a large army. ;)


    If religion is used as a political weapon, the adherents should expect political opposition from those who disagree with that course.
    Then it becomes a numbers and power game, and in Germany it's obvious who has the upper hand
     
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  15. Crezth

    Crezth 話說天下大勢分久必合合久必分

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    Since you brought up Nazi Germany let's look at the Holocaust. Here's a good summary of the wind-up to the Final Solution: Lecture: Toward the Final Solution. The thing you should take away from this is that concentration preceded extermination.

    The first solution was to separate the population from society and the economy and isolate it. It's hard to argue with 1/6 of all Black men being at some point detained within the American prison system and disappeared from daily life that some element of the Nazis' first solution is not also present in mass incarceration. Arguably the American system is a much more sophisticated system for isolating the Black population and exploiting them. They may not yet be extermination camps but they are at least racially-targeted forced labor camps. That's not even mentioning that the subjugation of colonized populations was a source of great positive inspiration for the Nazis.

    The second solution was to deport the population. This is what is occurring right now in America with the immigrant detention and deportation camps. Not everyone targeted and brought to these camps is an immigrant; many are refugees; many are taken in the dead of night (as of Nacht-und-Nebel) and never seen by their communities again.

    The third and final solution began with the sense of a political or military emergency brought on by the start of WW2 and initially indicated only the extension of the previous detention policy to the blanket confinement of all Jews to ghettos, where they would be allowed to die but, more importantly, concentrated for later purpose...

    Once the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union, the policy was further clarified so that all Jews captured by the advancing German armies be regarded "by a matter of principle, as partisan," and treated as such. This is when the Einsatzgruppen was dispatched expressly to kill Jews in territory taken from the Soviets, and when the SS in Poland, Germany, and Czechoslovakia began to liquidate the ghettos into the newly-built death camps. This was 6 years after the Nuremberg laws.

    The moral of the story is you have too narrow a view of what constitutes Nazi-like concentration policy and you should think very carefully about what kinds of things ICE and prison guards would be prepared to do if push came to shove. Just looking at pictures of the detention camps as they are right now summons irresistible and eerie comparisons to the ghettoes. All they need is a vague Heydrich order and a national emergency to start letting people die in great numbers, with the public none the wiser except for sanitized state department euphemisms about law and order.
     
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  16. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    Yeah, and what I'm saying is that's the story the Chinese government is telling just like the stories told by other governments to justify similar actions that history has told us were complete fiction.

    As for the UNHRC, I've basically been explaining in multiple posts why the US is a joke there. We've defended Israel's behavior towards Palestinians there, we've defended the Saudi blockade of Yemen there, we've been condemned for police brutality there, we've told them to go stuff it when they want action on the war crimes committed by US soldiers and private contractors. The UNHRC has zero reason to listen to the US. On top of that we have a dip**** in office whose had some pretty over the top rhetoric towards China so any move we make at them looks hollow and empty.
     
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  17. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    I think we've almost found common ground then. :)
    IMO politics isn't much different from what it was like in some city-states when the Borgias and de Medicis were around.
    Same fine rhetoric and speeches to the masses; similar Machiavellian machinations behind the scenes.
     
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  18. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    Excellent comparison, except that China hasn't declared the Uyghurs and other non-Chinese as subhuman, and AFAIK they aren't planning on marching into Moscow. Yet.
     
  19. west india man

    west india man Immortal

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    do they have to make an official declaration for it to be genocide?
     
  20. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    No, I'm not justifying Chinese actions based on melting glaciers. I'm saying the Uyghurs are going to have to leave that region very shortly, whether they are forcibly removed or because of failing environmental conditions.
    I'm presenting other factors for what is happening there - medical, cultural and political. If the Chinese wanted to exterminate Uyghurs they could just march the lot of them into their equivalent of Auschwitz. They are not doing that, and attempts at making their re-education camps identical to Nazi death camps is disingenuous at best.

    "Cretinism" is the medical term used for about a century. That term was used, with scare quotes, by the American Academy of Pediatrics. If you have an issue with the term sned your stern letter to the editors of medical journals. BTW, Australian medicos renamed it Iodine Deficiency Disorder (IDD) because of the connotations.

    As for my supporting "harming them for their own good"? How did you jump to that conclusion?
    I was presenting a major factor that is working against Uyghurs having any chance of success in that region. If China uses IDD as their main excuse for re-educating Uyghurs, that's their business - I really don't care if they do or don't.
    Whether you like it or not, the fact remains that if traditional Uyghurs outside of the major cities have problems stemming from IDD, they are not going to get employment in (primarily Han) Chinese run industries in that region.

    LOLOLOL. Over the centuries they conquered territory and moved people out; they themselves were conquered; they joined with other "empires" when it suited them, or they were forced to.
    They've played the war game for centuries themselves. They lost to the Communists in the civil war and now they're on the decline. Maybe they'll build up again and win next time, maybe they'll try to take Tibet again like they did less than a century ago, or maybe they'll just fade away.
     

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