General News Regarding China & Hong Kong

[Ferocitus]

You're playing the apologist of bad people doing bad actions, like those who did it for Stalin's show trials in the 1930s. And having to do it with bad excused because there are no good ones. The chinese are clearly in the wrong here.

"Xinjiang is doomed because glaciers", the why is China sending in more people, who just happen to be Han, to Xinjiang?

And now... cretinism? Really? Blame the victim already? "We're harming them for their own good"?

Xinjiang has always been there in Central Asia. It has no less Iodine now than it had 100 or 500 years ago. Its inhabitants, uneducated, superstitious or "cretin" as you may call them, lived there, reproduced there, and are human beings with a will of their own. If they don't want to be "uneducated", no one should force them to be. If they don't what to "move out" no one should force them to move out. As things stood until recently the area was inhabited by people who enjoyed living as they did and no one there was asking the chinese state to change things. At the most if there was an insurrection the chinese could fight the insurrection. But that's not what they're doing: they're trying to "sinicize "the region instead, by wiping out its population as a distinct one.

You excuses for chinese oppression there are the same kind of excuses that have been deployed for imperialism, colonialism and slavery in many places. They're abhorrent. It's true that most states have historically oppressed their own populations. That "education", sanitation, and many other modern things, together with the obligation to work for wages, have been forced upon people through state power. The outcome for later generations may be good (or not!) but the process of the people targeted is usually evil. Evil in one or many places does not excuse evil in other places. The history of the modern state everywhere is one of dragging people kicking and screaming, against their will, into "modernity". You can say "the chinese are doing no worse than the [whatever country]". But you cannot say "the chinese are doing good".

No, I'm not justifying Chinese actions based on melting glaciers. I'm saying the Uyghurs are going to have to leave that region very shortly, whether they are forcibly removed or because of failing environmental conditions.
I'm presenting other factors for what is happening there - medical, cultural and political. If the Chinese wanted to exterminate Uyghurs they could just march the lot of them into their equivalent of Auschwitz. They are not doing that, and attempts at making their re-education camps identical to Nazi death camps is disingenuous at best.

"Cretinism" is the medical term used for about a century. That term was used, with scare quotes, by the American Academy of Pediatrics. If you have an issue with the term sned your stern letter to the editors of medical journals. BTW, Australian medicos renamed it Iodine Deficiency Disorder (IDD) because of the connotations.

As for my supporting "harming them for their own good"? How did you jump to that conclusion?
I was presenting a major factor that is working against Uyghurs having any chance of success in that region. If China uses IDD as their main excuse for re-educating Uyghurs, that's their business - I really don't care if they do or don't.
Whether you like it or not, the fact remains that if traditional Uyghurs outside of the major cities have problems stemming from IDD, they are not going to get employment in (primarily Han) Chinese run industries in that region.

If they don't want to be "uneducated", no one should force them to be. If they don't what to "move out" no one should force them to move out.

LOLOLOL. Over the centuries they conquered territory and moved people out; they themselves were conquered; they joined with other "empires" when it suited them, or they were forced to.
They've played the war game for centuries themselves. They lost to the Communists in the civil war and now they're on the decline. Maybe they'll build up again and win next time, maybe they'll try to take Tibet again like they did less than a century ago, or maybe they'll just fade away.

 

[Ferocitus]

do they have to make an official declaration for it to be genocide?

Huh? Uyghurs are released from the re-education camps which means it isn't genocide. Uyghurs working and studying in the major cities of China outside Xinjiang aren't rounded up and put in camps, which means it isn't genocide.

 

[El_Machinae]

LOLOLOL. Over the centuries they conquered territory and moved people out; they themselves were conquered; they joined with other "empires" when it suited them, or they were forced to.
They've played the war game for centuries themselves. They lost to the Communists in the civil war and now they're on the decline. Maybe they'll build up again and win next time, maybe they'll try to take Tibet again like they did less than a century ago, or maybe they'll just fade away.

It will always be a communication barrier to people discussing geopolitics or political oppression, but none of the people in the camps participated in any of the events that you're accusing them of.

 

[Takhisis]

For those who are willing to endure the long read, here is a long article by The Atlantic (no paywall) on AI-powered state repression in China, which is too long to copy and paste here but covers the central government's 1984-not-lite approach to government, specifically also Xinjiang and Hong Kong.
Not least, how the Uyghurs' reproduction rate has been slashed by 60% in a few years, which of course means they can be replaced with more Han immigrants.

I think he's just a nihilist with latent authoritarian sympathies. I've long since decided that there is no point talking to him.

For those who don't know, Ferocitus is not a nihilist, just a pretend one. He claims to be a former Communist from the former Soviet Union who yearns for the good old days. Since he's either from Lithuania or Latvia (I think the former) he's either a local Balt with Stockholm syndrome or part of the populations that were forcibly transplanted by the Soviet Union in order to legitimise their illegal occupation of the Baltic republics. Which would also make him somebody with Stockholm syndrome because those populations are also victims of Soviet tyranny and the Stalin-led Politburo's megalomaniacal insanity.

Whatever his real story, all he does now, as he's admitted in the last few pages yet again, is cheer whenever the old ‘liberal!’ enemy stumbles; this, of course, is from the safe haven of a country that does not make him endure such despotism. A sort of Australian-based ReindeerThistle.
(edit: his post right on this page where he says ‘but it's not genocide!’ is very much a poor reprise of ReindeerThistle saying that he'd been assured by Nicolás Maduro in person that Venezuela was not a totalitarian dictatorship; not coincidentally, Venezuela's is -see the article above- one of the states that is using Chinese-manufactured surveillance against its own people)

Why would I not want personal freedoms? Why cheer on this type of government that conditions people to have a Pavlovian reflex that makes them need to have their own every activity monitored, who export their moral compass? Why cheer for psychopaths like the Cuban revolution and its dehomosexualisation camps and its ‘foquista’ offshoots across the continent? Why support a government that decides how many children you can have by simply sterilising anybody who reaches the cap, decides how and where you can spend your money, effectively runs your life for you from the day you are (allowed to be) born until the day you (are allowed to) die?

 

[Crezth]

Why would I not want personal freedoms?

laughs in USA

 

[H4run]

For those who don't know, Ferocitus is not a nihilist, just a pretend one. He claims to be a former Communist from the former Soviet Union who yearns for the good old days. Since he's either from Lithuania or Latvia (I think the former) he's either a local Balt with Stockholm syndrome or part of the populations that were forcibly transplanted by the Soviet Union in order to legitimise their illegal occupation of the Baltic republics. Which would also make him somebody with Stockholm syndrome because those populations are also victims of Soviet tyranny and the Stalin-led Politburo's megalomaniacal insanity.

Stockholm syndrome? that's a very enlightening observation, from a very common to a much more complex example this phenomenon do happened. When the bullied turned to be a bully, the harassed turned to be a harasser, and the oppressed ending up adoring an oppressor: adoring a demonstration of power.

The way some victim cope with oppression is to learn to like it themselves, in order to eliminate their internal psychological tension.

Mmmm... very nice Takhi Chan.

 

[Ferocitus]

It will always be a communication barrier to people discussing geopolitics or political oppression, but none of the people in the camps participated in any of the events that you're accusing them of.

Absolutely correct.
But it was a response to someone who mentioned that Uyghurs had been there for centuries and the implication that they somehow just magically landed in Terra Nullius.

 

[Ferocitus]

An interesting reply by Martin Jacques, a former senior fellow at the Department of Politics and International Studies at Cambridge University.

GT: Regarding Hong Kong, the British government and some officials like former governor Chris Patten have constantly criticized China.
What's your take on such reaction from the UK?

Jacques: UK´s response is entirely predictable. The roots of the problem are that, in a way, Britain´s thinking toward Hong Kong is still
very influenced by the colonial relationship it had with Hong Kong for 155 years.

I think Britain's interpretation of "one country, two systems" was "one system is the Chinese system, the other is the British system."
So, ever since the handover in 1997, Britain has never really respected China's sovereignty and Beijing's relationship with Hong Kong.
It's always been criticizing it. The classic example of this is Chris Patten, the former governor who was a leading conservative politician.

So it was predictable the British response to Hong Kong was to support the demonstrations in 2014, and again in 2019.

And when it got violent, the British media made no distinction at all between the big peaceful demonstration and the riots. They never,
ever criticized the rioters, who were regarded as heroes, anti-Chinese heroes.

https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1195354.shtml
Definitely not your collective cups of Oolong.

 

[Commodore]

For those who are willing to endure the long read, here is a long article by The Atlantic (no paywall) on AI-powered state repression in China, which is too long to copy and paste here but covers the central government's 1984-not-lite approach to government, specifically also Xinjiang and Hong Kong.
Not least, how the Uyghurs' reproduction rate has been slashed by 60% in a few years, which of course means they can be replaced with more Han immigrants.

For those who don't know, Ferocitus is not a nihilist, just a pretend one. He claims to be a former Communist from the former Soviet Union who yearns for the good old days. Since he's either from Lithuania or Latvia (I think the former) he's either a local Balt with Stockholm syndrome or part of the populations that were forcibly transplanted by the Soviet Union in order to legitimise their illegal occupation of the Baltic republics. Which would also make him somebody with Stockholm syndrome because those populations are also victims of Soviet tyranny and the Stalin-led Politburo's megalomaniacal insanity.

Whatever his real story, all he does now, as he's admitted in the last few pages yet again, is cheer whenever the old ‘liberal!’ enemy stumbles; this, of course, is from the safe haven of a country that does not make him endure such despotism. A sort of Australian-based ReindeerThistle.
(edit: his post right on this page where he says ‘but it's not genocide!’ is very much a poor reprise of ReindeerThistle saying that he'd been assured by Nicolás Maduro in person that Venezuela was not a totalitarian dictatorship; not coincidentally, Venezuela's is -see the article above- one of the states that is using Chinese-manufactured surveillance against its own people)

Why would I not want personal freedoms? Why cheer on this type of government that conditions people to have a Pavlovian reflex that makes them need to have their own every activity monitored, who export their moral compass? Why cheer for psychopaths like the Cuban revolution and its dehomosexualisation camps and its ‘foquista’ offshoots across the continent? Why support a government that decides how many children you can have by simply sterilising anybody who reaches the cap, decides how and where you can spend your money, effectively runs your life for you from the day you are (allowed to be) born until the day you (are allowed to) die?

Posts like this are why I can never hate you.

 

[Samson]

If you are worried about people who disagree with you getting elected, then make sure any ideas that you disagree with make one "not fit to run for office":

Hong Kong authorities have disqualified 12 pro-democracy candidates from upcoming elections, deepening political tensions in the Chinese territory.
Opposition legislators had hoped to obtain a majority in the Legislative Council (LegCo) in September's poll after Beijing's imposition of a highly controversial national security law.
Among those barred are high-profile activists Joshua Wong and Lester Shum.
The government said the candidates were not fit to run for office.
It said they could not be considered to be abiding by the constitutional duty required of lawmakers if they:

• advocated for, or promoted, Hong Kong's independence
• solicited intervention by foreign governments in Hong Kong's affairs
• expressed "an objection in principle" to the imposition of the national security law by central authorities in Beijing
• expressed "an intention to exercise the functions of a LegCo Member by indiscriminately voting down" any legislative proposals introduced by the Hong Kong government, "so as to force the government to accede to certain political demands"

In its statement announcing the disqualifications, the government said the decision was taken in line with Hong Kong's mini-constitution - the Basic Law.
"There is no question of any political censorship, restriction of the freedom of speech or deprivation of the right to stand for elections as alleged by some members of the community," it said, adding that more disqualifications could not be ruled out.
​

 

[red_elk]

Soviet Communists are people with Stockholm syndrome?
Then non-Soviet ones, I guess, are just ignorants according to our resident armchair psychiatrists.
Nice theory, but ad hominem unfortunately.

 

[abradley]

#HongKong #HKSecurityLaw #WION
The headline sez it all.

"4 Hong Kong students arrested under first action by new security law | World News
2,658 views
•Jul 30, 2020

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WION
1.54M subscribers
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[EnglishEdward]

An interesting reply by Martin Jacques, a former senior fellow at the Department of Politics and International Studies at Cambridge University.

GT: Regarding Hong Kong, the British government and some officials like former governor Chris Patten have constantly criticized China.
What's your take on such reaction from the UK?

Jacques: UK´s response is entirely predictable. The roots of the problem are that, in a way, Britain´s thinking toward Hong Kong is still
very influenced by the colonial relationship it had with Hong Kong for 155 years.

I think Britain's interpretation of "one country, two systems" was "one system is the Chinese system, the other is the British system."
So, ever since the handover in 1997, Britain has never really respected China's sovereignty and Beijing's relationship with Hong Kong.
It's always been criticizing it. The classic example of this is Chris Patten, the former governor who was a leading conservative politician.

So it was predictable the British response to Hong Kong was to support the demonstrations in 2014, and again in 2019.

And when it got violent, the British media made no distinction at all between the big peaceful demonstration and the riots. They never,
ever criticized the rioters, who were regarded as heroes, anti-Chinese heroes.

https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1195354.shtml
Definitely not your collective cups of Oolong.

I am inclined to agree.

The fact is the UK government made an agreement for the orderly transfer of Hong Kong to China, after that it was
up to the people of Hong Kong to negotiate the best ongoing harmonious accommodation with Beijing that they could.

 

[Crezth]

Soviet Communists are people with Stockholm syndrome?
Then non-Soviet ones, I guess, are just ignorants according to our resident armchair psychiatrists.
Nice theory, but ad hominem unfortunately.

I wonder if an ex-Soviet has Stockholm syndrome, what does that make someone who yearns for being ruled by the British? I mean say what you will about the Chinese or the Soviets but the British colonial administrators murdered and tortured a loooot of people.

“But Britain was good to Hong Kong!” If that’s your perspective, is it really so hard to believe a single person from the Baltic states might look at the Soviet era fondly?

 

[Ferocitus]

I wonder if an ex-Soviet has Stockholm syndrome, what does that make someone who yearns for being ruled by the British? I mean say what you will about the Chinese or the Soviets but the British colonial administrators murdered and tortured a loooot of people.

“But Britain was good to Hong Kong!” If that’s your perspective, is it really so hard to believe a single person from the Baltic states might look at the Soviet era fondly?

LOL. Thanks. Just for clarification in view of the ad hominems...
I'm neither a Soviet-style communist, nor a Maoist, and I've lived in Australia for 99.9% of my life. The Communist Party here split after the USSR "invaded" Hungary in 1956. My communist activities here started during the Vietnam war.
I have no great love for old Lithuanians who emigrated here after WW2. I know several who were Nazi collaborators, and that includes my paternal grandfather.
In response to the "nihilism" analysis by resident psychologists, I've underlined my nihilism so they can find it more easily...
I don't care what happens to what Christopher Hitchens called Islamo-Fascists.
I have no hatred nor love for the USSR. I'm surprised that Stalin and his henchmen didn't trash Lithuania more completely because of the collaboration with Nazis.
My maternal grandfather died after 10 years in prison in Siberia: I didn't know him and I don't pretend to have feelings for people I have never met, so I don't care.
My first language was Lithuanian, but I am "Lithuanian" only when the USA play Lithuania in Olympic basketball. I don't care if Lithuania collapses and has to join the Russian Federation.
I don't care about what the CCP is doing, or not doing in Hong Kong - I'm more interested in quite different aspects of this thread and topic.
I do however, love to bits that the "facts" about Hong Kong are coming from Murdoch media, Dominic Cummings& Boris Johnson, and Trump&Pompeo, all of whom make Tony Blair and G.W.Bush look like men glistening with honesty, rectitude and love of freedom, truth and the American Way (tm).

Now, back to the (obligatory) news from Hong Kong!

4 arrested for breaking security law in first major action from HKPF's new nat'l security unit
Four people who claimed to be students have been arrested for breaching the national security law for Hong Kong and suspected of secession by advocating for
"Hong Kong independence," the Hong Kong Police Force (HKPF) announced on Wednesday night.
https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1196117.shtml

I wonder what the significance of the word "claimed" is. I hope we'll find out during the trial.

 

[abradley]

It seems China's breaking it's treaty is ok with the people of this forum, not with me but with the other forum members.

 

[Commodore]

It seems China's breaking it's treaty is ok with the people of this forum, not with me but with the other forum members.

But let the US pull out of a treaty or agreement and those same people act like the US is the most dishonorable untrustworthy nation on the planet.

 

[Crezth]

Breaking treaties is a proud American tradition, hold your head high.

 

[abradley]

Same old, same old.

Because the US may have broken treaties ... China may.

 

[El_Machinae]

The recent American reticence regarding AGW is basically the only international treaty breaking that really bothered me. It's a situation where we're shrinking the future pie in order to get a larger slice, and it's frustrating.