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Hong Kong

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Commodore, Aug 14, 2019.

  1. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    Two wrongs don't make a right. China's a gross authoritarian state that is working on bringing "1984" to life. The problem is when you're not exactly a paragon of virtue it's hard to use diplomatic leverage against another nation's crimes.
     
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  2. Commodore

    Commodore Deity

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    Compared to China, just about everyone except North Korea and Saudi Arabia looks like a paragon of virtue though.
     
  3. Crezth

    Crezth 話說天下大勢分久必合合久必分

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  4. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    I don’t consider burning/looting of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria a national crime. Criminal behaviour of some organisations and individuals. Plenty of people protested this lunacy, millions, in NY, London and other places, but their voice wasn’t strong enough. Shouldn’t make a whole nation guilty of crimes committed by oligarchs and their henchmen. Doesn’t seem right.
     
  5. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    It wasn't the action of a few rogue actors though. If it was a crime (separate argument) it was one authorised by the US government and carried out by the US military. Can't get much more national than that.
    I don't believe in collective guilt though. If it was a crime it was carried out by the USA which doesn't make every member of the American people guilty of it.
     
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  6. abradley

    abradley Deity

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    And as usual the usual suspects return to the same old chant about the US not being purer than pure, as if the US's supposed faults justify the acts of the Chinese CCP
     
  7. abradley

    abradley Deity

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    There's the old saying that goes 'Speak softly and carry a big stick.'
     
  8. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    No, the US faults don't justify supposed acts of the Chinese CCP.
     
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  9. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    But Iraq was a success!
     
  10. Commodore

    Commodore Deity

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    You're right, the United Nations did.
     
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  11. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    What really jumps out is how resistant some macro-indicators are to working according to my intuitions.

    2020-07-31 (2).png

    Still, not as good as it should be, obviously

    2020-07-31 (3).png
     
  12. Ailedhoo

    Ailedhoo wonderer

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    Sorry to bob into this chat but...

    This is about the 2003 invasion?

    "I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN charter. From our point of view and the UN Charter point of view, it [the war] was illegal"
    The then United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan

    Both the United States and United Kingdom infamously did not get their wanted vote for the war as it were, with France of all countries being among those who stood against the war.
     
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  13. Commodore

    Commodore Deity

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    Had the UN allowed the US to topple Saddam back in 1991 instead of making us stop just before we took Baghdad, the 2003 war never would have happened.

    If we can blame the Treaty of Versailles for laying the groundwork for WW2, then we can certainly blame the UN imposed ceasefire in the Gulf War for Operation Iraqi Freedom.
     
  14. Ailedhoo

    Ailedhoo wonderer

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    The ceasefire caused the 2003 invasion?

    How does that work exactly?
     
  15. Commodore

    Commodore Deity

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    How did the Treaty of Versailles cause WW2? It left simmering tensions behind that made a future war inevitable.
     
  16. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    That doesn't really change the fact that the US crated Iraq, without global support and without achieving its stated mandates.

    (well, except its stated mandate of getting revenge for 9/11, I guess)
     
  17. Ailedhoo

    Ailedhoo wonderer

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    Granted it was likely the Bush dynasty would be a personal desire from that family on Iraq as it were but that "this leads to that" can be described as ahistorical, particular with you shoehorning of the World Wars. Focusing on the case of Iraq the 2003 invasion remains not by the UN as it were. As for the so called notion of fate: what if the USA had focused on Afghanistan? What if both the USA and UK had been more... respectful of international treaties? What if the lies about chemical weapons been exposed much, much earlier? What if 9/11 and the war march that came after it did not occur? Of course these questions on speculations of potential alternative histories of the early 21st century are speculations but the idea of fine lines in history are not the means of seeking the answer.
     
  18. Commodore

    Commodore Deity

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    Doesn't mean we are to blame. The 2003 invasion was a resuming of hostilities due to Saddam's repeated violations of the ceasefire over the years.

    If you and I get in a fight because I was shooting spitwads at you and we stop fighting because I agree to stop shooting spitwads at you, would the blame really be on you if you broke my jaw because I shot some more spitwads at you?
     
  19. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    I don't think there's any value in discussing it further, honestly. You're on record being all 'Mission Accomplished' regarding that smoking crater, so it's not like your argumentation will diverge much from that foundation.
     
  20. Crezth

    Crezth 話說天下大勢分久必合合久必分

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    Seeing Americans passionately defend a lying administration murdering and displacing millions and leaving a war-torn ruin overrun by sectarian violence and radicalization... I hope it sheds some light on what people would actually be signing up for if America led a war coalition against China. Just imagine the countless millions of civilians that would be killed, and all of it justified by warhawks who are trying to “save the world.” Imagine the lies that would be told and the war criminals who would retire in luxury. Save the world by destroying it, I guess.

    On the one side we have the Chinese who sterilize and imprison their own people, on the other side we have the Americans who did that too (and still have millions of forced laborers) and have a prestigious track record and a practiced doctrine in obliterating entire nations. Select your fighter.
     
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