General News Regarding China & Hong Kong

[Crezth]

Seeing Americans passionately defend a lying administration murdering and displacing millions and leaving a war-torn ruin overrun by sectarian violence and radicalization... I hope it sheds some light on what people would actually be signing up for if America led a war coalition against China. Just imagine the countless millions of civilians that would be killed, and all of it justified by warhawks who are trying to “save the world.” Imagine the lies that would be told and the war criminals who would retire in luxury. Save the world by destroying it, I guess.

On the one side we have the Chinese who sterilize and imprison their own people, on the other side we have the Americans who did that too (and still have millions of forced laborers) and have a prestigious track record and a practiced doctrine in obliterating entire nations. Select your fighter.

 

[Ferocitus]

It's probably only temporary, but it seems that punishing Apple for its collaboration with the evil CCP is starting to hurt sales of iPhones.
Huawei shipped more smartphones than any other company last quarter — making it the first to dethrone Apple and Samsung in 9 years
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/huawei-beats-samsung-apple-smartphone-market-q2-2020-7?r=US&IR=T

 

[Lexicus]

How did the Treaty of Versailles cause WW2? It left simmering tensions behind that made a future war inevitable.

There was nothing inevitable about the Iraq War, it was started by the choice of George W Bush and his administration, after they engaged in a campaign of lies and deception.

Seeing Americans

It's just Commodore, most of us aren't like him...though too many are...

 

[Commodore]

murdering and displacing millions

Yeah...that didn't happen. It wasn't us doing the killing and displacing of civilians over there.

Source: I was actually there.

and leaving a war-torn ruin overrun by sectarian violence and radicalization.

Blame that on the new Iraqi government. They demanded we leave, a demand we obliged. And it wasn't until after we left that the nation became overrun by sectarian violence and radicalization. We were keeping a lid on all that crap while we were there.

Source: I was actually there.

. Just imagine the countless millions of civilians that would be killed

Yeah, and it would be the Chinese killing them. The US goes to ridiculous lengths to avoid collateral damage in combat. Sometimes we go to such lengths that it puts the lives of our soldiers at greater risk. For example, while I was there, about halfway through my deployment, new rules of engagement came down that strictly forbade the use of grenades unless given prior approval from division or higher.

And see, the media doesn't report on stuff like that. Mostly because the military hides as much of that stuff from the media as it possibly can. But that's also why people like me tell (in vain) people like you to stop believing what you read. Because what all these media outlets report simply doesn't jive with what soldiers actually experienced on the ground.

 

[H4run]

Seeing Americans passionately defend a lying administration murdering and displacing millions and leaving a war-torn ruin overrun by sectarian violence and radicalization... I hope it sheds some light on what people would actually be signing up for if America led a war coalition against China. Just imagine the countless millions of civilians that would be killed, and all of it justified by warhawks who are trying to “save the world.” Imagine the lies that would be told and the war criminals who would retire in luxury. Save the world by destroying it, I guess.

On the one side we have the Chinese who sterilize and imprison their own people, on the other side we have the Americans who did that too (and still have millions of forced laborers) and have a prestigious track record and a practiced doctrine in obliterating entire nations. Select your fighter.

None of what you stated is wrong, however if the enormous size of US' and her coalition crime is used to compare then trivialized the Uyghur ethnic purge that happening in China, with every possible heinous treatment that get inflicted to them, and it's still happening even now as you read my post, infliction such as organ farming, mass sterilization, torture, which the "re-education" camp is basically an equal or a worst version of Guantanamo with larger population target.

If your comparison is a meant to trivialized that, then I disagree with you. If both of them are an option to chose, then I chose none of them. You cannot compare a rapist who rape, with a rapist who rape then kill the victim, and ask me which one is worst, because in such comparison where do you put the value and the humanity of the victim?

 

[EnglishEdward]

You cannot compare a rapist who rape, with a rapist who rape then kill the victim, and ask me which one is worst, because in such comparison where do you put the value and the humanity of the victim?

Actually I can.

The advancing soviet armies that raped and then fed German women were better than
the advancing German armies that raped and then shot Russian and Ukrainian women.

 

[H4run]

Actually I can.

The advancing soviet armies that raped and then fed German women were better than
the advancing German armies that raped and then shot Russian and Ukrainian women.

You can, but by neglecting entirely the rape victim and giving the utmost important to the preparator.

From the example that you presented the Soviet's rapist looks more shiny and holier than the German counterpart, in addition to that you can pat the back of the German's victim and told her "It's heavy, I know, but the Russian suffered worst, you are lucky in a way girl!"

 

[EnglishEdward]

You type complete nonsense. I am not presenting rape as shiny or holy.

 

[H4run]

You type complete nonsense. I am not presenting rape as shiny or holy.

Then what is the purpose of the comparison? To know which one is better? To show that between the two dark one is more shinier than the other, and one victim are more fortunate than the other.

You wanna compare but you don't want to admit any consequences and implication that come with such comparison. Most of what-aboutism is about devil advocating heinous acts.

 

[Traitorfish]

You cannot compare a rapist who rape, with a rapist who rape then kill the victim, and ask me which one is worst, because in such comparison where do you put the value and the humanity of the victim?

Surely the legal system makes this sort of distinction as a matter of course?

Treating certain crimes as more severe doesn't in any plausible way represent approval of the less severe crime.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Then what is the purpose of the comparison?

In this instance, the purpose of the comparison is primarily to refute your point that the comparison can not be made.

Surely the legal system makes this sort of distinction as a matter of course?

Quite so. There was a time in England when the legal system would hang a murderer.

Treating certain crimes as more severe doesn't in any plausible way represent approval of the less severe crime.

Precisely.

 

[H4run]

Surely the legal system makes this sort of distinction as a matter of course?

For legal purpose: yes. But to compare which one is "better", no, none of them is better.

 

[AmazonQueen]

For legal purpose: yes. But to compare which one is "better", no, none of them is better.

But some are worse.
If I say insurance fraud isn't as bad as rape it doesn't mean I'm saying insurance fraud is good.

 

[H4run]

But some are worse.
If I say insurance fraud isn't as bad as rape it doesn't mean I'm saying insurance fraud is good.

Well yes of course that's an extreme example, but to compare two rape victim, or two different population that were/are victims of state oppression or terrorism, is not like that. Especially when by comparing the two, you ending up, intentionally or not, shedding light for the other one.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Well yes of course that's an extreme example, but to compare two rape victim, or two different population that were/are victims of state oppression or terrorism, is not like that. Especially when by comparing the two, you ending up, intentionally or not, shedding light for the other one.

I agree that we shouldn't be letting Country A off the hook for torture in detention camps or indiscriminate bombing because Country B is committing genocide.
Still we do compare what was done to rape victims all the time. Just because someone wasn't tortured, murdered or beaten to within an inch of their life doesn't mean a victim wasn't raped but when considering how to punish the crime we would sentence the offender more severely if they'd done some or all of those things. Sometimes as with murder it is considered a separate offence and gets a separate sentence. Sometimes its considered to increase the severity of the offence.

 

[H4run]

I agree that we shouldn't be letting Country A off the hook for torture in detention camps or indiscriminate bombing because Country B is committing genocide.
Still we do compare what was done to rape victims all the time. Just because someone wasn't tortured, murdered or beaten to within an inch of their life doesn't mean a victim wasn't raped but when considering how to punish the crime we would sentence the offender more severely if they'd done some or all of those things. Sometimes as with murder it is considered a separate offence and gets a separate sentence. Sometimes its considered to increase the severity of the offence.

On a legal stand-point without doubt I'm agree with you, so do with TF, but in a case of morality, or a contest who is the more benevolent aggressor or a better rapist, nah, please no.

I got an anecdote for this. Back in University I had a friend, he told me that his friend, who was/is a robber told him that "I rob so many houses, and harassed people, but never even once I rape anyone in my life", it maybe true, but he used the fact that he never rape anyone in order to shed a light to the horrible thing that he was doing, implicitly comparing himself with other robber whom morally worst than him, which is a complete joke just like the state terrorism contest that we have here. And between this state oppression contest where is the value of the Uyghur people, the actual victim? This is what I against.

 

[AmazonQueen]

On a legal stand-point without doubt I'm agree with you, so do with TF, but in a case of morality, or a contest who is the more benevolent aggressor or a better rapist, nah, please no.

I got an anecdote for this. Back in University I had a friend, he told me that his friend, who was/is a robber told him that "I rob so many houses, and harassed people, but never even once I rape anyone in my life", it maybe true, but he used the fact that he never rape anyone in order to shed a light to the horrible thing that he was doing, implicitly comparing himself with other robber whom morally worst than him, which is a complete joke just like the state terrorism contest that we have here. And between this state oppression contest where is the value of the Uyghur people, the actual victim? This is what I against.

From a morality viewpoint sure they are all bad but we are talking about international politics here. Even getting it treated like it is in national law would be an improvement over now when might is right.
The Nazis only got punished because they lost.

 

[H4run]

From a morality viewpoint sure they are all bad but we are talking about international politics here. Even getting it treated like it is in national law would be an improvement over now when might is right.

I think we are too far away from discussing international law, specifically within the context of this thread, the discussion is revolved around either the oppression that happened in China against the Uyghur ethnicity is a real one or an exaggerated propaganda from the hypocritical West? From there it lead to the other discussion about who are the worst oppressor between the two. The comparison is not a measurement of what sort of legal consequences should the CCP faced, it's about who morally the worst between those two, which is irrelevant.

edit: I miss read international politic with international law, in that case, an organized, state level oppression and purge, even a much more disturbing variable to compare, especially as it happened now, not in the past, we are not comparing between Hulagu and Genghis Khan for academical/historical comparison here.

We got Uyghur chinese who get oppressed, kidnapped, torture even rape on daily basis in China, what is the relevant of comparing what America do/did in such discussion? Nothing.

 

[Crezth]

None of what you stated is wrong, however if the enormous size of US' and her coalition crime is used to compare then trivialized the Uyghur ethnic purge that happening in China, with every possible heinous treatment that get inflicted to them, and it's still happening even now as you read my post, infliction such as organ farming, mass sterilization, torture, which the "re-education" camp is basically an equal or a worst version of Guantanamo with larger population target.

If your comparison is a meant to trivialized that, then I disagree with you. If both of them are an option to chose, then I chose none of them. You cannot compare a rapist who rape, with a rapist who rape then kill the victim, and ask me which one is worst, because in such comparison where do you put the value and the humanity of the victim?

I was being cheeky. I don’t want to minimize Chinese crimes in any way. But at the same time I think a lot of dust being kicked up about the Chinese crimes serves a political purpose for certain American politicians who are very desperate to have a scapegoat right now. We know what happened the last time American politicians singled out a regime for annihilation, and it should cause just as much anxiety as the very disturbing reports from Xinjiang.

However I do disagree it’s impossible to distinguish between bad and worse. If we had a good reason to believe the Americans could topple the CCP and establish a transitional regime that would credibly lead to a legitimate, pluralistic, egalitarian democracy, you could make the argument American intervention would be taking the situation from worse to better. I think just the opposite however. It’s hard to overstate how badly Iraq was screwed up, and not by unfortunate circumstances but by the bonkers policy of the warmongers. They liquidated the entire civil service and just left the new government’s inchoate, and blacklisted all former officials of the old regime. That’s insane. And worst is the lesson the Americans seem to have taken away is “ground troops are expensive.” Well, yes, they are expensive, but you use them so you don’t have to police a nation by raining holy fire down from the sky!

At least I appreciate most Americans don’t want war with China, but they’ve been lied to and swayed before.

 

[H4run]

If we had a good reason to believe the Americans could topple the CCP and establish a transitional regime that would credibly lead to a legitimate, pluralistic, egalitarian democracy, you could make the argument American intervention would be taking the situation from worse to better.

I consistently always against American foreign intervention policy, I see the result, and it's anything but pretty, the topple of Soekarno and the support of local corrupted junta like Soeharto pretty much crippled Indonesia until this very day, we see that pattern in many places and country. Back to the Uyghur issue, this atrocities need to be recognized and dealt with, but not the wild west way, there should be more political pressure or even sanction to the current government in China, include pressure of whoever endorsed and support such atrocities like the Turkish government who knowingly ejecting their Uyghur refugee back to China by using Tajikistan and others central asian country as proxy. There is already dissatisfaction among the Chinese politician and civilian alike regarding the current government, I'm sure with enough pressure the CCP would not so easily did what they did. I got so many acquaintances from Uyghur, and the way the Chinese surveillance exercising controlled over-them, is sickly paranoid, totally disgusting.