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Honor Open

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Battleskoolbrat, Oct 27, 2013.

  1. Battleskoolbrat

    Battleskoolbrat Chieftain

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    Is it ever a good idea to open with honor solely for the culture per barb kill? I find myself doing it on occasions, but I'm not sure if it's ever really worth it.
     
  2. Civsassin

    Civsassin Immortal

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    I never do a pure Honor opener. I will usually get my monument up first, take the first Tradition policy and then take the Honor opener for exactly the reason you mentioned. From there, I will work between Tradition and Honor. I like the Oligarchy, Military Caste combination. I try to put together a three unit hit team to keep the culture coming in from barb kills. I am not sure how efficient the strategy works, but I've won a few games with it on Immortal (my preferred difficulty) and Emperor.
     
  3. Scott Jegg

    Scott Jegg Warlord

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    If you plan on filling out one of the other trees, it will cost an extra 130 culture to fill it in the same time you would have if you hand't opened with honor, and that's if you only have one city.

    If you think you can farm that many barbs then it might be worth it. There's the extra bonus of farming barb camps for cash and CS influence.

    I wouldn't do it though, because you can't farm barbarians for the whole game to justify the increased cost of the SPs, IMO.
     
  4. Battleskoolbrat

    Battleskoolbrat Chieftain

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    I play on Emperor, but I'm talking about only opening Honor up, not taking any other policies in it then going immediately to Tradition. I don't go to war very often in Civ, unless the AI forces it upon me, so I mainly use it as a culture supplement.
     
  5. Battleskoolbrat

    Battleskoolbrat Chieftain

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    Okay, thanks Scott, that's the information I was looking for.
     
  6. FeiLing

    FeiLing Deity

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    Well Tradition is 3 culture per turn.
    Honor is 8 culture per warrior barbarian... so you'd have to kill a barb every 3 turns of it being of same value that opening Tradition. That does actually not even happen to me even with ragging barbarians.
     
  7. Gamewizard

    Gamewizard Emperor

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    Honor opener also reveals barb camps in revealed territory which can be helpful in protecting your trade routes. Also, when I take honor I like to camp a unit or 2 near the barb camps to farm culture and level up units to level 2 quickly before clearing the camp. I usually wait for a CS quest before clearing them.

    However, crowded maps mean less barb camps, so take that into consideration.
     
  8. njmfff

    njmfff Prince

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    Exactly. Tradition opener first to grow boarders, then Honor opener just for barbs. Doing some barb hunting will more then pay of for wasted culture on Honor opener. :D and by the time third policy pops up, I like to get free Amphitheater in my 2nd and 3rd city. :lol:
     
  9. greygamer

    greygamer Feudal Lord

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    Recently I have been opening Honor with a side order of Liberty. These two work well if you want to get those SP quickly. Liberty gives +1 culture per city and the Honor SP Military Caste gives +2 culture per city with a garrison which is +3 culture per city. Add to this the culture you get for barbarian hunting, I tend to have raging barbarians on these days, and you can get a lot of SP very quickly. On emperor I keep pace with Poland without building lots of culture buildings.

    Note I do not necessarily complete Liberty but I do build the Pyramids asap
     
  10. Cicerosaurus

    Cicerosaurus Emperor

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    I will usually go Honor as possibly the second choice and sometimes the first- depending on the situation. I do play with raging barbarians, and also the Mod that doesn't limit experience against barbs.

    As mentioned above it goes beyond the mere culture- you have more chance of dispersing a barbarian camp and the gold that goes with it(if you are fortunate you can pick up a captured worker), see where the barb camps are and also (with the Mod) get some experienced units for the inevitable wars later on.
     
  11. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    As others have said, on a long-term perspective, it never pays off to open Honor alone for the culture. For the entire game, your policies will be pushed one step back - for instance, this means you'll need to earn one more policy before you finish Tradition, one more policy before you finish Rationalism, etc. In late game, that extra policy will amount to several thousand culture points, and since you will never farm this much culture from barbarians, at this point it will mean a delay that you opened Honor.

    However, opening Honor can mean that you earn the subsequent 3-4-5 (depending on number barbarians on map) policies faster than you otherwise would. Thus, as a short-term investment opening Honor might be worth it because it can help you cross certain early key policies faster than you otherwise would. Obviously opening Honor also gives you other benefits than just the culture, so these might also make it worthwhile to do this investment. But if you're in it only for the culture, the best answer is probably that it's a bad investment viewed over the duration of the game.
     
  12. Greizer85

    Greizer85 Emperor

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    With the barb spawning rate being drastically buffed in BNW (a new barb every other turn when you kill the last one standing on the camp), it makes sense to pick the Honor opener and set up 'culture farming camps', especially as the Aztecs. The trick is to wait 'til a camp spawns in a convenient place (surrounded by mountains or on a peninsula), so that you can close off access with 2-4 Archers. Then you just shoot the barbs as they appear, racking up xp and culture... In an ideal situation you might have 3 or even 4 such camps, although the unit maintenance may get too taxing at some point.

    Imo it's a bit cheesy to use a mod to give you unlimited xp from barbs in such a case... But to each their own (and I'm not saying Cicerosaurus was advocating this specific tactic; just pointing out that if you do use that mod to 'farm' like this, I'd think it cheesy). Ofc even without the mod some may argue that this tactic is, well, unintended by the devs (to put it politely)... But it does take luck and a modicum of skill to set up. And I'm not sure if it's worth it if you're not the Aztecs; with them it certainly is.

    Now even as the Aztecs I'd never take more than the opener in Honor... *That* is a problem that needs dealing with (and which the touted Fall Patch failed to address, making me question my faith in Firaxis).
     
  13. greygamer

    greygamer Feudal Lord

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    I have to disagree, Culture from Honor is pretty good because it gives you 2 sources, barbarian farming and garrisons for a base 2 cpt (4cpt if you build a monument) per city. If you take the Liberty opener you will get another +1 per city, That is 4 SP in total. I usually complete Honor because you get gold for killing military units which can help when the world is against you. Then I go for the AI capitals which is more cpt added (and less for the AI). I haven't tried this with Monty but it must be pretty insane if you do.
     
  14. Cicerosaurus

    Cicerosaurus Emperor

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    I rarely use the "farming" technique with barbs- in the early game the 25 gold for getting rid of the camp is generally more valuable to me. However, I will leave barb camps in place if they aren't annoying me and they are a hindrance to the AI sending settlers my way.

    I started using the unlimited experience mod mainly as I was tired of blasting a barb camp to nothing with my archer and then an AI scout appear from out of the mist and grab the gold. I thought I may as well obtain something for my effort even if experience. I can't really understand the capped experience anyway- if barbs can get tanks and destroyers why is it different to fighting them than the AI? (I can understand the cap when there were bears and lions etc).
     
  15. Civsassin

    Civsassin Immortal

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    Sometimes, those early advantages add up, and you can make up any losses later in the game. Often times early advantages lead to lasting advantages.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
     
  16. Silverman6083

    Silverman6083 History-Lover

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    Yes. In my most recent game as Songhai, which kept my treasury filled early game & late, and went:
    Honor-Tradition-Legalism-Monarchy-Finish Honor-Finish Commerce-Autocracy, I also took god of war so culture+faith+Gold for barb kills ^-^ but early game honor can be pretty strong
    Settings: Raging Barbs, Emperor, Fractal
     
  17. Canadian Bluebeer

    Canadian Bluebeer Prince

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    Knowing where the barb camps are is also handy for protecting your own workers.

    (so if a camp pops behind a hill from a worker, you'll know about it right away, instead of when the barb shows up to take your worker, or start pillaging. Saves on the number of units posted to guard duty in home areas)
     
  18. VicRatlhead5199

    VicRatlhead5199 King

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    I'm thinking it's because it could be a bit exploity if you farm camps instead of clearing them. Getting really highly promoted units off of barb camps could be a big advantage. I've used the same mod myself but never felt like it gave an unfair advantage because I generally aim to clear them and not farm them.

    I like to take the honor opener more to protect my trade and civilian units than anything. It's great knowing where the danger lies. It really doesn't slow down the early policies at all as long as you keep at the hunting. It might mean one less policy in the long game but usually the game is won or lost by then. I often do the same thing others have said and go tradition then honor then back to working on tradition. I find I can generally finish tradition around the same time I would if I hadn't opened honor. Plus it gives me a little time to get a couple cities out with monuments so I can get free amphitheaters instead of free monuments from legalism.

    It's nice to open it early too so you can get real benefit from it rather than later after S%&$ hits the fan and you decide to go honor to help in later wars.
     
  19. Beaver79

    Beaver79 Warlord

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    I like the honor opener. Not for the culture, but for the gold. I only play marathon raging barb games, so I probably get 4 times as many barb camps as normal speed. Still though, by the time I get philosophy researched I've killed 15-20 barb camps.

    It's enough to rush buy a third settler and almost a library in that new city. I can get a 3 city, 3 library, NC start faster usually than going liberty. After that point though you don't get many camps and you get pretty much nothing out of it. The liberty or tradition opener would keep giving and giving.

    It's really only worth it on larger maps or longer speeds.
     
  20. CaptainPatch

    CaptainPatch Lifelong gamer

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    I always open with the Honor adoption strictly because it acts as a kind of "barbarian radar", letting you see when a barb camp appears in your vicinity. It gives you the opportunity to run a unit over there and destroy the barb unit before it starts moving towards any of your developing cities. And as someone else mentioned, it's an easy way to generate cashflow. (ESPECIALLY if you're playing Askia/Songhai, which pays you 225 gold per camp rather than just 75-90. Stomping barb camps all over the map is usually good enough to keep your Treasury in the plus, despite usually having a negative per turn cashflow.)
     

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