Honour first? Farming the barbarians

[Heretiv]

Well, I am attracted to the idea of trying different trees.
I have used the tradition tree a couple of times, and it works ok, but I quite like sprawling - so maybe using the honour benefits of happiness for garrision and happiness from defesive buildings works well with this? Best play a game and see if it works.

 

[tommynt]

And I'm not like tommynt, winning in any way possible as noone ever done before. He plays in his own, very lonely class.

I play Emp/Imm and like to play a peaceful game, if it lasts for 323 turns, I'm sure tommynt wouldn't disagree as he does the same on Deity, time after time. But 150 turns faster.

Even if I read what players like tommynt does, I don't play that way and I never ever set a goal for fastest finish in my games.

I play for fun and have 2000 hrs played.

Isnt it human nature to try be good at what u do?
when I do sports, I try to play good and win
when I m at job, I try to be succesful
when i play PC games I try to win hardest difficulty I am enjoying and win best way possible
when I m spending night with woman I try please them best way and over and over

That doesnt include that human nature isnt also to be lazy, but when u r doing something allready - why not do it good?

being said, honor opener is horrible and I dont see any reason to wage arguments left and right about it.
Its not even about it being bad but just about other choises being better.
Tradition opener is best example as its easy to compare, but then when argumenting to pick it as 3rd policy compare it to the tradition food growth and again it will just be worse.

And I really dont understand why such easy concepts like comparing possibilities instead of just pointing out the strong ones about 1 thing isnt common on a discussion here.
half of posts here been like "HEY IT GIVE A FIGHTING BONUS AND CULTURE VS BARBS - I LIKE"
yeah every1 can read that ingame ..

 

[TractorBoy]

I only play at Warlord/prince levels but this much I do know - If you take the honor opener it is easy to fall into the trap of having lots of troops positioned around the map and taking out barb camps as soon as you have been informed of their existence. From my own experiences I have come to realise that I am missing those vital early opportunities to take out a barb camp at the request of a City State.

 

[grandad1982]

Time to join the necro.

I thought that the idea of going Tradition first to speed up later policies in other trees have been firmly debunked. You are automatically behind due to the fact you took Tradition first instead of opening Liberty or Honour.

I'm sure there are threads with the math to prove this so I might try to dig one out.

EDIT: The same applies for just opening Honour for faster policies. I'm sure it won't work.

 

[heke]

It all depends on your strategy, doesn't it? There's no global truth on this. If you're going to be an early warmonger you might seriously consider opening the game with Honor. Though I still wouldn't pick Honour for a culture

 

[grandad1982]

Just to be clear I was bringing up Tradition because gozpel mentioned it in his post and I realise that the OP was talking about Honour. And it was a long time ago

EDIT: Changed the post because one of my numbers weren't correct!!!

Ok, here we go: Settings: Standart speed and map size, buildorder scout - monument (finished on turn 12)

TRADITION OPENER
Turn | per turn | policy | culture required for next policy
00 1 nothing. 25
16 6 tradition 30
21 7 liberty... 60
30 7 republic 105
45 7 settler... 170
69 7 worker.. 255
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LIBERTY OPENER
00 1 nothing 25
16 4 liberty.. 30
24 4 republic 60
39 4 settler.. 105
65 4 worker. 170

With Liberty opener you actually get all the Liberty policies faster than with the Tradition opener.

Why? Because you have to "pay" more culture for one additional policy:
Required culture for worker with Tradition opener:..... 25+30+60+105+170
Required culture for worker without Tradition opener: 25+30+60+105
=> 170 more culture required which can't be compensated by the +3 per turn.

And it gets worse:
Because you picked the Tradition opener, you always have to pay more for the same amount of useful policies (in late game tradition opener is useless culture wise).

Think about it. You might have to pay 1500 more culture to get to the next policy in Rationalism, just because you picked the Tradition opener.
=> Definately not a good idea.

Conclusion: Don't take the Tradition opener when you don't plan to use anything else in Tradition and you don't need the extra border expansion.

So here is some math. Whilst its harder to determine the amount of culture you might get from the Honour opener compared to the static Tradition bonus, it strikes me that any benefit will be so short term as to be meaningless and will in fact hurt your progress in to the later stronger trees.

For sure opening a tree for its other benefits is fine but if its for the sole purpose of gaining culture then your trying to spend culture to make it and that won't work.

 

[bc1]

No one is challenging the math. It just happens that the tradition tree is also very competitive on its own (at least with the gods & kings liberty nerf)

 

[grandad1982]

@bc1

The OP was saying that they were taking Honour as a way to speed up culture for SPs. I only went to find the maths to show this was probably a bad idea.

Your are of course right that the Tradition tree is great in its own right. Its just its greatness doesn't extend to speeding up other trees if you only take the opener.

Well actually the OP also said that if nothing else the Honour opener also helps out with barbs so alls not lost

 

[bc1]

taking Honour as a way to speed up culture for SPs ... was probably a bad idea

Yes you're right it's a bad idea

 

[bcaiko]

Don't open honour just for the culture. Even with raging barbs it doesn't pay off on the long run.

Even though this thread is necroed, this is still correct. Even more true in G&K, perhaps, where Barbs (even on Raging) are less likely to spawn. You'll never see a Barb past the Medieval era. There are many reasons to take Honor, but the culture-per-barb is a stopgap to push you through the tree.

Honor stinks for anything but an early domination push. Seldom is a war decided based upon little bonuses your units may have.

A 50% experience increase is worthless? 20% increase in production of all melee units? Half price upgrades? These are long-term bonuses for any Civ that relies on war.

Heck, the gold per kill from the finisher means a military Civ never has to worry about its economy again. If money is a concern for Japan, Germany, ect., you should be pushing to complete Honor ASAP.

 

[bc1]

No one disputes that honor has some nice bonuses. The correct question should rather be: how do they compare with those of the other trees ?

 

[Billy Rubin]

I often pick it if I want to go down the entire tree later which is what I usually do when going for an aggressive game. I usuallly combine it with either liberty, honour - even occasionally with both of them.

If I plan to get tradition, I start the tradition tree first for the +3 culture and border growth, then start off the honour tree to farm barbs but complete tradition afterwards, filling the honour tree later as I see fit.

Yes - the culture from barbs is negligible in the long run, but I always go for early policy rushes as I ususally don't rush cities and go for tall empires. Getting those policies early when the number of cities is the lowest is a real force multiplier and that's where I think it's useful.

 

[Soronery]

Pick montezuma and go honor.

 

[Soronery]

No one disputes that honor has some nice bonuses. The correct question should rather be: how do they compare with those of the other trees ?

If you are going for conquest honor is pretty much the best opening tree to take.

 

[Gort]

If you are going for conquest honor is pretty much the best opening tree to take.

I usually find most of my conquering happens in the late game after I've built up a real force and a tech lead. I then pick someone weak, take them over, recover, take over the next weakest, and so on.

I very rarely bother with honour since the tradition start is so powerful economically.

I guess if I was playing the Huns or someone who does a rush right out of the gate, Honour might be the way forward, but I usually find I'd rather spend the early game peacefully expanding, then start the wars once I run out of space.

 

[Soronery]

I usually find most of my conquering happens in the late game after I've built up a real force and a tech lead. I then pick someone weak, take them over, recover, take over the next weakest, and so on.

I very rarely bother with honour since the tradition start is so powerful economically.

I guess if I was playing the Huns or someone who does a rush right out of the gate, Honour might be the way forward, but I usually find I'd rather spend the early game peacefully expanding, then start the wars once I run out of space.

You should be warring early and taking cities so you can upgrade your archers and have double fire/range/indirect fire by the time crossbows come. At that point it'll be slaughterfest and you'll be getting culture and gold on kills (if you are monty)

 

[Tachii]

Isnt it human nature to try be good at what u do?
when I do sports, I try to play good and win
when I m at job, I try to be succesful
when i play PC games I try to win hardest difficulty I am enjoying and win best way possible
when I m spending night with woman I try please them best way and over and over

If you want to go into philosophy for a game, I say there is no human nature, period. Certainly people are naturally improving at whatever they're doing all the time, but it does not mean everyone want to do something to the best of their abilities. This is not true and it never will be.

People like to be good at what they do, yes, but when you, for example, try to win at the hardest difficulty, that goes far beyond than just trying to be "good". That's trying to be the best at what you're capable of for a game. For most of us, it is simply not fun to play at Diety or to improve victory to the fastest times. It has nothing to do with trying to be good. At its core games are supposed to be enjoyable. People generally do want to be good at it, but that doesn't mean we have to compromise our enjoyment for it.

Now for you going for the hardest difficulty and getting the fastest victory might be fun, but for others that isn't what make the game fun.

 

[gozpel]

Pick montezuma and go honor.

Or Maya, a bit slower but still you get those barbs killed with the Atlalists and they all be formally promoted until the next real war, or upgraded as whoopass later units.

Still, Monty is even better and can grab 1-2 policies on just killing. You guys just try hard enough!

And tommynt, I'm not bagging you for your playstyle or "fair play". You are just a division higher than the rest of us and it's very difficult to understand how you can do all that on a random map, time to make a voice movie, mate!

 

[AlwAysAnA]

Strategies and build orders are more complicated if they are to be used to be geared to it's full potential. It is all connected and long term planning, at least in MP games which is where i belong.

I find going 1 policy in honor very beneficial when circumstances suggests the following opening:

I have at least 1, best 2, granary resources and healthy production which makes it possible to end great library in turn 23-25.
I select honor and build scout-monument-granary-gl.

During this build i will switch to tradition while researching necessary tile technologies such as minin/animal husbondry/trapping/masonry.

During this time the GL is finished and i go directly for NC. I propably build another archer to help barb/defence then i transition into Oracle. The oracle stacks Great Scientist production to two which is important cause you get the first one somewhere around turn 55-60.

After this i will research Drama and Poetry.

The early monument ensures you get a free amphitheater in your capitol onc eyou have D&P.

You can now go for Theology while expanding.

In this setup i finish Tradition three super early which allows for fantastic growth throughout the game. Large cities boost sciense which is what this build is all about.

The early Theology lets you get hagia sophia which almost guarantees that you get religion first or second, which makes it possible to select ceremonial burial and/or pagodas to support the growth.

While building Hagia Sophia, after expanding to four cities, you beeline education. That is among other to continue adding to your Great scientist production with the two university specialist. After theology you only need Civil Service which also gives you fruther growth with the +1 food next to fresh water bonus, which again yields sciense.

Sometimes you have to make a detour to construction while going for Civil Service as you need to defend with composites.

Also the early medivial due to Theology boost city state bonuses which you tend to get a lot of with the first honor policy.

This is an optimal scenario. You obviously need to deviate sometimes and improvise accordingly.

Nq.Prosperous

 

[dashwinner]

To get back to the opening post, this is how it started, and I think it overlooks the main qualities of the Honour tree.
The main qualities for me are the durable qualities.

A Great General is a huge boost to any military campaign. Yes it's possible without it, but 20% extra for every unit who is part of your campaign is not to be sneezed at.
But that's not where the real quality of the Honour tree lies for me. I'm always getting rushed early by the AI before I have the chance to do anything myself, and dealing with that rush + the ordinary dealings with barbs will already get me a Great General, if not I will be close to it. You wouldn't take the Honour tree for that, neither as for the culture against barbs.

The better Honour policies are lower down, and they're durable. To run down the tree, from the bottom up:
The finisher: Earn gold for every killed unit. The longer the game lasts, the more units you'll kill. Makes a big difference financially.
Professional army: Cheaper upgrades and +1 happy for every defensive building. The longer the game lasts, the more you will upgrade, saving you lots of money over time. Also more defensive buildings will come available, but even if you build just walls it's nice enough.
Military Caste: +2 culture and +1 happy for every city with a garrison. Again, a lasting effect. Strong.
The first Honour policies are less durable:
Military Tradition (?): +10% strength for every flanked unit. This one is still durable, of course.
Warrior Code: Instant Great General + 15% discount on melee units. The discount will probably save quite some beakers over the course of the game, the general... it depends a lot on what's going on in your game when you need it. You'll get one without Honour anyway, that's for sure.
Honour starter: Get culture for barbs + barb camp notifications. This one fizzes out quickly.

No, for me the best Honour policies are the lower down ones, not the first ones. And it's about durability. The effect of the Honour tree you'll see over time. It's very different from the Liberty tree: pouff, a worker, pouff, a settler, pouff, a golden age, pouff, a great person. It's instant satisfaction. Not that the Liberty bonuses don't have effect over time as well, no, they're durable as well, I see that, but the effect is still much more immediate than with the Honour tree.
Perhaps it's why the Honour tree is less popular, I'm not sure, but I think the tree gets underestimated.

you forget my favourite one. the 50% bonus xp. i'm just a sucker for those super upgraded terminator units