Hooray - Al Quaida stopped once again

That's true, perhaps, but it's not what I asked for. How we determine what's the "real" Islam?

I think we must analyze a) the roots of the religion b) the real preactice of the religion.

Both look very violent. The recent form of Islamic violence (jihadist terrorism) is just a continuation of its violent tradition which started with Muhammad's conquest of Mecca.

Mecca surrendered without minimal casualties. The early wars against pagans in the area is not unique only to Muslims. Jews, and later Christians would do the same.


The idea that a religion is fundamentally peaceful or fundamentally violent is rather silly, considering that each of these religions has been around for at least 1000 years. Some parts of each are violent, some parts of each aren't. Let it stay that way.
 
That's true, perhaps, but it's not what I asked for. How we determine what's the "real" Islam?

I think we must analyze a) the roots of the religion b) the real preactice of the religion.

Both look very violent. The recent form of Islamic violence (jihadist terrorism) is just a continuation of its violent tradition which started with Muhammad's conquest of Mecca.
Since collective human behaviour tends to subvert attempts to a priori deductively define it, I think you need to go with the functional approach, with a decent level of induction.

Disuccing the history of, Islam warts and all, I have no problem with, as long as it's on the understanding that history has the privilege of being non-reductionist, which again means that it's not a fit basis for making essentialist calls on what any phenomenon "really" means. What it was then doesn't decide what it is now. It may detail certain predispositions, a basic conceptual framework open to interpretation, addition, excision of various parts.

"Roots" don't work as people tend to think they do. Westerners, and others, are predisposed to think that an intellectual geneaology works by having a a Great Ancestor who triggers everything. Genealogical thinking in a society is one of the more powerful model which unwittingly predisposes peoples thinking.
The bullet is fired in the past, and then everyone else is obliged to follow the trajectory. It allows the assumption that somehow we can work out what an intellectual tradition really means by looking at the Great Guy at the inception, the Original Form.
In reality there's more to suggest that the process works the other way around; every generation is obliged to reconnect, and at this point there is more or less severe tinkering with the tradition. Which is why there is a constant necessity in intellectual history to reassess the Great Ancestors, and it invariably turns out their present day followers have made something very different of the tradition they started.

So the problem with postulating a deductive analytical definition of something tends to be that people then go and do things differently. In that case one can of course claim to simply have a negative result — in this case it might allow someone to conclude that the people calling themselves Muslims are in fact not "real Muslims" in accordance with the definition (this is actually what the al-Q. is doing at present).

It could work as a first step of an analytical process, but in itself it's insufficient. Someone will come along and say "Yes, yes! But since these people still admit to a collective identity as Muslims, no matter what your definition says, we want to know what's really going on with them here. All your definition does is tell us to go look at some other people."

Short of it: Analytical definitions of Islam made by non-Muslims tend to be a form of the "glass-bead game", academic or otherwise. The trick is to work out what's going on with Islam and Muslims in general, not what one thinks they should be up to, given things like past history, tradition etc. If that was how humans worked, the world would be easy-peacy to understand due to the deadening regularity and conformity of human behaviour.

But it's not.:)
 
I think that ideology is the last remnant after the fall of Nazism and Communism

ROFL! OMG ISLAMOFASCISTS! ;)

Actually, the rise of radical Islam as largely a response to a series of bad policy choices by the US. Its somewhat a monster of our own making.
 
Actually, when the president is getting reports and warnings from various departments, it is his job to get people to put it all together. He's supposed to have briefings on these things and get filled in and so forth. He's supposed to put people on the job to root out the sources of these problems. His staff is supposed to help with this, because that's why the exist.
Then why didn't Clinton set events in motion to stop it? He also had all of the same information.
Instead you get him and his staff being dismissive of people and warning, including such briefings like "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Within United States" which told that we had terrorist cells IN THE UNITED STATES. What did the White House do about that information? Nothing.
People have been saying "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Within United States" since Bin Laden started Al Qaeda. It wasn't anything new. It was the same news we had been ignoring for 10 years prior. There was no reason to believe that anything different was going to happen; it was a classic case of the Boy Who Cried Wolf except in reverse.
We had an FBI agent who said there was this guy taking flight classes and clearly up to no good. He lived with other Hijackers (providing clear links to 3 of the 4 planes for instance). I am just touching on SOME of the issues here.
Except these issues are nonsense. Nobody was learning how to fly planes but not to land them, and anyone who believes that is stupid or gullible, since in order to be instructed in how to fly a plane, you need to fly a plane, which means you need to land a plane.
President Bush and his staff's willful disregard was nearly criminal. It was definitely completely incompetent. But the fact that somehow it was impossible to stop 9/11 despite all the information we had which the President ignored seems to appeal to you for some reason.
Once again, why aren't you diving all over Clinton for this, too? He had all of the same information Bush had, he had it for a longer time, and he did even less about it. Plus, he was eight years incumbent and therefore could have had a much more elaborate plan in place; Bush hadn't even had one full year yet, so expecting him to have this master plan already set up and in motion is absurd and naive. Of course, you don't actually care about the truth, you just care about making conservatives look bad.
 
Actually, the rise of radical Islam as largely a response to a series of bad policy choices by the US. Its somewhat a monster of our own making.
Nonsense. It's a combination of a religion with some horribly corruptable little bits in it (due to broad possible interpretations) and massive western intervention in the middle east for the last 400 years.
 
The holocaust was perpetrated by christians.
You mean atheists? Because that's who perpetrated it. Stalin was also an atheist.
So was the nuclear bombing of japan.
Not in the name of Christianity.
So was the inquistion.
This is the only valid thing you said.
The genocide of american indians. The genocide of aboriginies. The genocide of africans.
None of them in the name of Christians. Also, when was this "genocide of Africans?" Additionally, a bunch of people dying of diseases we were immune to is hardly what I'd call "genocide," which is what happened to the vast, overwhelming majority of native Americans and Aborigines.
What have the muslims done that come even close to one of these criminal acts? Yeah no one can "come up with a stupid analogy" like you can, you win there, "winner". :rolleyes:
Well, they killed Christians and Jews in Spain before the Inquisition in a manner more brutal, they killed all of the Christians in North Africa and tried to kill the Nubians and Ethiopians for being Christian. They killed the Christians in Palestine and Tyre and Turkey. They killed the Christians in Crimea, Georgia, and Mesopotamia. They killed the Hindus in India and the Buddhists in southeast Asia.

Islam has a much worse track record than Christianity does by a long shot.
 
Without targetting anyone specifically, I think that most of these discussions tend to use too much generalisations... THE christians, THE muslims, THE Americans, and so on. We cannot argue this way - well, we can, but it is completely pointless :D - we can, in fact, try to see if there are general tendencies in certain ideologies/religions/"national culture" which tend to influence a certain degree of a given population toward specific behaviour, but even this is very sketchy scientifically. Christianity is as possibly "harmful" to an already anomic individual as Islam or Conservatism etc. is and each can be used to create incentives for directed action from different bodies inside a society, so it is not really a valid category if used on a broad scale, so I really don´t see the point.
 
You mean atheists? Because that's who perpetrated it. Stalin was also an atheist.
Not in the name of Christianity.
This is the only valid thing you said.
None of them in the name of Christians. Also, when was this "genocide of Africans?" Additionally, a bunch of people dying of diseases we were immune to is hardly what I'd call "genocide," which is what happened to the vast, overwhelming majority of native Americans and Aborigines.
Well, they killed Christians and Jews in Spain before the Inquisition in a manner more brutal, they killed all of the Christians in North Africa and tried to kill the Nubians and Ethiopians for being Christian. They killed the Christians in Palestine and Tyre and Turkey. They killed the Christians in Crimea, Georgia, and Mesopotamia. They killed the Hindus in India and the Buddhists in southeast Asia.

Islam has a much worse track record than Christianity does by a long shot.

"In the name of"??

What the hell does that have to do with anything?! :eek:

Holy jumping jesus on a pogo stick! :lol:

I didn't even mention stalin. Would you care if someone that killed you, did it "in the name of" something or just out of boredome? would it make the least bit of difference one way or another? What planet are you on? Dont talk to me again, cause you failed to say a single valid thing. Murder is murder regardless of if the motivation behind is greed or stoopidity or both.

Again not that it makes any difference whatsoever, but you should learn about the role of religion in the 3rd reich.

When you do, come back and we won't talk. Ever.
 
"In the name of"??

What the hell does that have to do with anything?! :eek:
Because unless you're doing something in the name of an idea, then it's not that idea that you're doing it for, is it?
I didn't even mention stalin. Would you care if someone that killed you, did it "in the name of" something or just out of boredome? would it make the least bit of difference one way or another? What planet are you on? Dont talk to me again, cause you failed to say a single valid thing. Murder is murder regardless of if the motivation behind is greed or stoopidity or both.
Except that you were explicitly attempting to say that Christians murder people because of their religion; therefore, their motivation is the only thing that matters. Sure, it doesn't matter to a dead person, but not a whole lot does matter at that point, does it? By the way, it doesn't reflect very well on you to call people stupid and, while attempting to do so, misspell the word in a way that only a child would.
Again not that it makes any difference whatsoever, but you should learn about the role of religion in the 3rd reich.
That it got stomped on constantly, and frequently forced to do things at gunpoint?
 
The holocaust was perpetrated by christians.

I thought it were the Nazis, sorry, my bad, you surely know better :lol: :p

So was the nuclear bombing of japan. So was the inquistion.

The genocide of american indians. The genocide of aboriginies. The genocide of africans.

Blah, blah, blah. First go and find out what the word "genocide" means before you use it again.

What have the muslims done that come even close to one of these criminal acts? Yeah no one can "come up with a stupid analogy" like you can, you win there, "winner". :rolleyes:

We are not talking about who killed more. If it was so, then Chinese would be the most brutal people on Earth, since their civil wars have killed more people than any so-called World War.

We are talking about which religion is more violent, which compels its followers to commit atrocities for religious reasons. Muslims, from the day one, waged Jihad against all unbelievers. Holy war, violence, religious zealotry, that's what Islam has been like for most of its history.

So yeah, any analogy to Christianity and others is totally absurd and if you don't get it, it's your problem.
 
Mecca surrendered without minimal casualties. The early wars against pagans in the area is not unique only to Muslims. Jews, and later Christians would do the same.

Christians didn't wage any wars in the name of their religion for hundreds of years. Muslims, on the other hand, waged them from the very beginning.

Their story in short: Muhammad allegedly had a psychotic experience, he turned it into Koran, gathered followers and marched to the city which had expelled him. Infidel blood was spilled in the name of the faith even before Muhammad's death, so we know for sure he approved it.

Now give me one example of Jesus or Budha doing the same.

You can't? Good, that's what I am talking about - the roots of Islam are filled with violence, while the roots of other comparable faiths are not.

The idea that a religion is fundamentally peaceful or fundamentally violent is rather silly, considering that each of these religions has been around for at least 1000 years. Some parts of each are violent, some parts of each aren't. Let it stay that way.

I disagree. I believe we can say that certain religions are more agressive than others.
 
If Islam was the root cause of terrorism, we'd see a lot more terrorists, 1 billion to be exact.
 
If Islam wasn't the root cause of terrorism, we'd see a lot more non-Islamic terrorists.

we do. Basque, IRA, and inquisitons have been around for way longer and totally included more members than the jihadist terrorists actually linked to any attacks. The Boxers were also a "terrorist" group, as were the Thugees in India. There have been millions of non-islamic terrorists and there still are.


and since you're so keen to make the link between Islam and terrorism would you mind telling me why it's the prophet's order which drives these men to action, and not these men's own interpretation of the prophet's order?
 
If Islam wasn't the root cause of terrorism, we'd see a lot more non-Islamic terrorists.

Well, you know that's not true. There are tons of terrorists of every stripe.

I'm not arguing that Islam isn't inherently violent, I think it is (and the Muslims are inherently peaceful, if short-sighted, just like everyone else). Just that it's clearly not the root cause.
 
Then why didn't Clinton set events in motion to stop it? He also had all of the same information.

He didn't have all of the same information. New information was coming in. The Clinton Administration knew something was coming, but they didn't have all the details yet. They did have things setup to handle terrorist attacks, but since the Bush administration didn't want to listen to anyone who was around during Clinton, the executive's key role was not continued.

People have been saying "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Within United States" since Bin Laden started Al Qaeda. It wasn't anything new. It was the same news we had been ignoring for 10 years prior. There was no reason to believe that anything different was going to happen; it was a classic case of the Boy Who Cried Wolf except in reverse.

Yeah, and the fact that brief said there WERE TERRORIST CELLS IN THE UNITED STATES was also "nothing new" as well? The fact that brief went over a plan on how to handle terrorism which was IGNORED was something that the Bush administration shouldn't have bothered with either, I suppose.

Except these issues are nonsense. Nobody was learning how to fly planes but not to land them, and anyone who believes that is stupid or gullible, since in order to be instructed in how to fly a plane, you need to fly a plane, which means you need to land a plane.

Riiiight, so because the FBI agent found suspicious behavior at a flight training facility and because we knew Al Qaeda was interested in hijacking planes...there couldn't possibly of been any real information there. It was right to just ignore field agents.

Once again, why aren't you diving all over Clinton for this, too? He had all of the same information Bush had, he had it for a longer time, and he did even less about it. Plus, he was eight years incumbent and therefore could have had a much more elaborate plan in place; Bush hadn't even had one full year yet, so expecting him to have this master plan already set up and in motion is absurd and naive.

Again, a lot of new information came about while Bush was in office. Clinton would have known how to handle the information if he was there, but he wasn't. AFAIK, the plane tickets were not bought while Clinton was around, for instance. You are ignoring the fact the Bush repeatedly ignored everyone who tried to tell him something was going on, CIA, FBI, Dick Clarke, etc. That's a high level of incompetence that you seem content to let slide for no good reason.

They tried to brief the Bush Administration about the dangers of terrorism and they tried to give the Bush Administration their work and plans on how to handle it. Bush, Rice, and others repeatedly rebuffed all attempts to do this however, because they didn't want to listen to other people (and we have seen this behavior repeatedly since 9/11). And again, the Bin Laden Determined To Attack Within United States had a plan for the Bush administration in it.*

Of course, you don't actually care about the truth, you just care about making conservatives look bad.

Well, I am a Democrat, but if you think Bush is the poster boy for conservatism, then you have something wrong with your head. Bush has been repeatedly incompetent throughout his administration and has always focused on form over substance. I guess you like ignoring the repeated blunders of the Bush administration and making excuses for him.

-Drachasor

*Well, Condi said it wasn't a plan, just a "series of actionable items" -- though that sounds like a plan, now doesn't it?
 
we do. Basque, IRA, and inquisitons have been around for way longer and totally included more members than the jihadist terrorists actually linked to any attacks. The Boxers were also a "terrorist" group, as were the Thugees in India. There have been millions of non-islamic terrorists and there still are.
Per capita, there are vastly more Islamic terrorist than non-Islamic ones. Vastly more.
and since you're so keen to make the link between Islam and terrorism would you mind telling me why it's the prophet's order which drives these men to action, and not these men's own interpretation of the prophet's order?
Well, the problem I see with Islam is that it's frequently self-contradictory. I can point you to at least three or four passages that order Muslims to slaughter infidels without mercy. I can also point you to at least three or four passages that specifically say to show mercy to the infidels so that you might convert them.

I'm not sure which of these two philosophies was what Muhammad intended, but judging by his actions I'd imagine that the ultra-violent one based on killing everyone who doesn't agree with you is the original intention, and that the idea of mercy was injected by more level heads well after the fact.

The thing that disappoints me so much about Islam is that its core tenets are so fundamentally sound. I almost converted when I heard the Five Pillars, but then I actually started to read the Koran and discovered all of the insane bits that moderate Muslims either ignore or attempt to explain away.
 
Nonsense. It's a combination of a religion with some horribly corruptable little bits in it (due to broad possible interpretations) and massive western intervention in the middle east for the last 400 years.

lol, believe what you like. I didn't say it was the sole cause, but there's a significant role here in terms of the legacy of US (and European) policy decisions in the 20th century.
 
The President had all of this information at his fingertips.
No. He did not. That's the part you're not getting.

No human being can have all the information in the government at his fingertips. There's too damn much of it--why do you think the government has something like a hundred thousand employees to process it all???

All of the needed information was in fact in the U.S. government--but each piece was in a different place, no one person could possibly know where all the pieces were (again, there's far too much info for one person to keep track of), and so you're being completely unreasonable in expecting the government to connect the dots.

Edit: Ooh, here's a good one--why do you suppose Clinton missed the FIRST World Trade Center attack.....? I'm quite certain you've got a plausible excuse to exonerate him. And there you have it: Presidents do not have all the data. They need their underlings to distill it and catch all the important stuff, and as human beings, said underlings will miss the important stuff sometimes. Which is what happened with both WTC attacks.
 
Oh, you are quite wrong here. If the police discover contraband or evidence of another crime while using a search warrant, they are allowed to seize the related items. Just where are you getting this absurd information?
From the web. I found a whole bunch of conflicting accounts on how it's supposed to work, and many accounts of different districts working in different ways.

Which gets back to the real problem yet again: different departments with different rules.

Oh, and I never claimed the police weren't allowed to sieze the material--it's whether they're allowed to take you to trial for it if they sieze the stuff without a warrant.
 
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