Horrible business practice

[Shmike]

With the release of the expansion, everyone seems to be excited, nobody seems to be upset about them charging for basically a patch of things that were missing from the game. I know they need to make money, but to charge for missing stuff is a slap in the face. Espionage and religion have already been done but they play differently in civ 5. For the expansion they should of at least added something new to go along with religion and espionage, more wonders and units doesn't cut it, these are all things that should of been in the game. They figured giving Mongolia as a free civ would make up for a half finished game.
By buying the expansion, you're only encouraging publishers to sell half finished games and charge more money for missing features. This is already happening and will probably get worse. Everyone has already pre ordered and are only supporting a horrible practice.
Consumers have the power to put a stop to this, but they won't and will continue to get screwed over. Why is it that no one cares?

 

[Anon.]

eff the 1%

 

[King Kalmah]

With the release of the expansion, everyone seems to be excited, nobody seems to be upset about them charging for basically a patch of things that were missing from the game. I know they need to make money, but to charge for missing stuff is a slap in the face. Espionage and religion have already been done but they play differently in civ 5. For the expansion they should of at least added something new to go along with religion and espionage, more wonders and units doesn't cut it, these are all things that should of been in the game. They figured giving Mongolia as a free civ would make up for a half finished game.
By buying the expansion, you're only encouraging publishers to sell half finished games and charge more money for missing features. This is already happening and will probably get worse. Everyone has already pre ordered and are only supporting a horrible practice.
Consumers have the power to put a stop to this, but they won't and will continue to get screwed over. Why is it that no one cares?

Thats why I'm not buying G%K until it either proves us all wrong or they make an Expansion pack like BTS...

and I agree...this DLC stuff should be illegal....

 

[notadummy]

but many people love this game, so we are helping support firaxis by buying their expansion. That's how I see it.

 

[Anon.]

I will happily buy it. When it's at least 50% off. Or when people tell me how awesome it is. Maybe they will release a patch at the same time?

 

[BobDole]

With the release of the expansion, everyone seems to be excited, nobody seems to be upset about them charging for basically a patch of things that were missing from the game. I know they need to make money, but to charge for missing stuff is a slap in the face. Espionage and religion have already been done but they play differently in civ 5. For the expansion they should of at least added something new to go along with religion and espionage, more wonders and units doesn't cut it, these are all things that should of been in the game. They figured giving Mongolia as a free civ would make up for a half finished game.
By buying the expansion, you're only encouraging publishers to sell half finished games and charge more money for missing features. This is already happening and will probably get worse. Everyone has already pre ordered and are only supporting a horrible practice.
Consumers have the power to put a stop to this, but they won't and will continue to get screwed over. Why is it that no one cares?

Last time I checked, religion and espionage were done MUCH differently in past Civ games (or were absent). Religion in particular was completely absent in every game till IV, and wasn't really all that involved in that game compared to G&K. Espionage could also end up being much more detailed. And there's plenty of other new stuff being added too. If you don't like it, then don't buy it. But most people probably won't agree with your assessment of Civ V.

 

[King Kalmah]

Last time I checked, religion and espionage were done MUCH differently in past Civ games (or were absent). Religion in particular was completely absent in every game till IV, and wasn't really all that involved in that game compared to G&K. Espionage could also end up being much more detailed. And there's plenty of other new stuff being added too. If you don't like it, then don't buy it. But most people probably won't agree with your assessment of Civ V.

Thats the thing though.Early in Civilization history...like Civ2 they had temples due to the fact that the religion topic was much more "alive" and more heated during the time of Civ2.Sure things are still tense,but its not like in the 80s when everyone had the attitude of "lets destroy the atheists commies"...

Also you have to understand that the computers back then couldn't handle "church" "temple" "mosque" and "place of worship" and all the graphics that go with it...It was easier for everyone to just have a temple...

I also think that espionage was handled great in Civ4...a little bit bare,but it was perfect..this new system in G&K seems a bit more like Civ3 and more simple...when it should be more in depth...thiunk of it this way...you could move your spy around and destroy enemy improvements(forts) or even damage enemy troops.(maybe poison their food/water supplies)The possibilities are endless!

Instead we get Embassy based espionage which is better then no Espionage,but it should be more fleshed out...

I am however waiting to see how religion pans out...

 

[prince_caspian]

When you consider the even more atrocious practice of DRMing games to the point where they don't function if you don't have internet or servers are *UNFORTUNATELY* down, and I'll name names right now - Diablo 3, Heroes VI, Anno 2070 and most <Ubisoft> games - then you wonder why a significantly higher proportion of CiV players actually don't mind paying for DLCs. Or the expansion.

Moderator Action: Inappropriate language replaced.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Atlas627]

Sigh. The "Charging me for things that should've been in the game from the start" argument.

If they released the stuff at the same time, yet made the expansion/DLC a "special edition" that costs more, then you could certainly use this argument. I personally disagree, because I think $80 is still an acceptable price for a game I have spent over 1000 hours playing. But I could see that argument working.

But no, its been almost 2 years now right? They had to spend time to develop the system, add the mechanics, playtest, remove bugs, and that took a year or so. The content could not have been in from the start. And Civ5 vanilla is cheaper now, so if you were to buy it with the expansion NOW then you would be paying $50 (in fact the sale makes it even less, but I digress). So as of now, the expansion IS included in the base cost.

You payed extra money to have the game 2 years early. They didn't rip you off, you got early access.

Besides, if you want to get technical, the publisher has to do it this way. Once all the art has been generated (for example) and the developer moves on to playtesting and bugfixing, the artists have nothing to do. So they can be moved to a different project (including DLC) or fired. So it is possible (and very likely) to have some content for an "expansion" or DLC completed but it is not releasable when the base game is ready for release. This gives people the impression that is was "taken out" of the base game to be sold later.

 

[King Kalmah]

You payed extra money to have the game 2 years early. They didn't rip you off, you got early access.

I'm tired of people making this point like the game was some kind of "Party" or "event" that is so great because we got in early...

umm no it is no a party or concert...in fact the band never leaves the "show"...using your argument... I could wait till the game was $10 in a Big Lots bin and save $40 bucks and get the same cool "concert"..

Basically we are charged to test their game...what if it crashed my computer?

ohh no refund there...

I just think that this DLC/DRM is a joke and everyone should atleast admit that to themselves..

you don't have to admit it here on the forum...I understand peer pressure..but atleast admit it to yourself...

 

[Ranos]

The reason that every single feature that was in CIV by the end is not found in CiV is because this is a new game. Oh it's based on Civ 1-4 and uses the same name for marketing purposes, but this is not the same Civ.

What the devs did with CiV was to build a brand new game. From squares to hexes, from SOD to 1UPT, from everything is melee to a mixture of melee and ranged, from the two tile fat cross to a massive three tile hex.

Now I'm not a programmer but I would assume that some of the code that was used in Civ I could still be found in IV. Why? Because units moved the same, they acted the same. Cities were placed and spaced the same. Many things were the same. Sure the graphics got more sophisticated and new features were added, but it was mostly the same.

Civ V had to start from the ground up. So of course a lot of the features that were in IV aren't going to be found right away in V. Were we used as beta testers? Most definately. And we paid to do it too. But the end result by the time V has had two or three expansions is probably going to be something far superior to what we had at the end of IV. And then they'll make VI and it'll just get better.

Bottom line is if you don't like it, then don't buy it. I'm planning on getting it as soon as I can. Not the day it comes out because I'd end up getting fired for missing work but when I can take a couple of days off to Civ myself to death, I'll spend the money.

Quit looking at Civ V how it is now and start looking at how it will be when they are finished with it.

 

[Shmike]

But no, its been almost 2 years now right? They had to spend time to develop the system, add the mechanics, playtest, remove bugs, and that took a year or so. The content could not have been in from the start. And Civ5 vanilla is cheaper now, so if you were to buy it with the expansion NOW then you would be paying $50 (in fact the sale makes it even less, but I digress). So as of now, the expansion IS included in the base cost.

You payed extra money to have the game 2 years early. They didn't rip you off, you got early access.

I payed to play test their broken game, which is still somewhat broken when it comes to optimization and the modern era and long loading times between turns.
It's not my fault they didn't have enough resources to finish the game. They should of delayed it, but nope they wanted a cash in.

I feel that early adopters should get the expansion for free as a "sorry and thank you for your patience and supporting us" but that will never happen.

 

[Shmike]

The reason that every single feature that was in CIV by the end is not found in CiV is because this is a new game. Oh it's based on Civ 1-4 and uses the same name for marketing purposes, but this is not the same Civ.

What the devs did with CiV was to build a brand new game. From squares to hexes, from SOD to 1UPT, from everything is melee to a mixture of melee and ranged, from the two tile fat cross to a massive three tile hex.

Now I'm not a programmer but I would assume that some of the code that was used in Civ I could still be found in IV. Why? Because units moved the same, they acted the same. Cities were placed and spaced the same. Many things were the same. Sure the graphics got more sophisticated and new features were added, but it was mostly the same.

Civ V had to start from the ground up. So of course a lot of the features that were in IV aren't going to be found right away in V. Were we used as beta testers? Most definately. And we paid to do it too. But the end result by the time V has had two or three expansions is probably going to be something far superior to what we had at the end of IV. And then they'll make VI and it'll just get better.

Bottom line is if you don't like it, then don't buy it. I'm planning on getting it as soon as I can. Not the day it comes out because I'd end up getting fired for missing work but when I can take a couple of days off to Civ myself to death, I'll spend the money.

Quit looking at Civ V how it is now and start looking at how it will be when they are finished with it.

That is not an excuse to release a broken product, that attitude will get us **** on by publishers.

Should of edited this into my above post.

 

[Atlas627]

I'm tired of people making this point like the game was some kind of "Party" or "event" that is so great because we got in early...

umm no it is no a party or concert...in fact the band never leaves the "show"...using your argument... I could wait till the game was $10 in a Big Lots bin and save $40 bucks and get the same cool "concert"..

Basically we are charged to test their game...what if it crashed my computer?

ohh no refund there...

I just think that this DLC/DRM is a joke and everyone should atleast admit that to themselves..

you don't have to admit it here on the forum...I understand peer pressure..but atleast admit it to yourself...

You get the same concert, but you missed the first 2 hours. Its like paying less to get into an amusement park after 5pm.

If you want to argue about it being an unfinished product in the sense that they didn't even get the BASE game even close to right, then that's a different argument.

You are paying for a product. If you don't think its worth that much, don't pay that much. The argument here is that they aren't giving us the whole product ON PURPOSE, so that we will give them "more money". My argument is that

1.) They aren't doing it on purpose. They could certainly wait 2 years and release the base game and the expansion together at $50 (which they are doing, as anybody who buys it now gets it for that price), or they could release the part they finished early and charge people for getting to use it for 2 years (which you, I, and many other people have taken advantage of).

2.) You aren't giving them a cent more than you think its worth. Obviously if you buy it, you think its worth that much. This isn't food, you don't need this game. So they aren't ripping you off in the sense that you have no choice in the matter.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

We all have our own opinions; naturally they vary. Mine is that I've already pre-purchased G+K because I really enjoy playing Civ V and feel that G+K will enhance the experience. I'm actually quite excited by the prospect of playing it in three weeks or so and think the guys at Firaxis have done a great job.

 

[Atlas627]

I payed to play test their broken game, which is still somewhat broken when it comes to optimization and the modern era and long loading times between turns.
It's not my fault they didn't have enough resources to finish the game. They should of delayed it, but nope they wanted a cash in.

I feel that early adopters should get the expansion for free as a "sorry and thank you for your patience and supporting us" but that will never happen.

That is a different argument altogether. You are arguing about whether or not the game should have been released unfinished, but in the OP you were arguing about whether or not it was ok to have the expansion be charged extra, as if it should have been in the game all along.

Pick one and we can discuss it. Then perhaps the other. Don't counter one argument with the other.

 

[kiwimaster]

The people who pre-ordered it obviously don't care because they probably enjoyed CiV and couldn't be happier to have an expansion. The people who didn't can and should wait for reviews or a future sale. Nobody's being forced to pay or support something they don't like.

 

[Glassmage]

OP need to get a grip on reality that not everyone thinks they are being "ripped off".

 

[BobDole]

Thats the thing though.Early in Civilization history...like Civ2 they had temples due to the fact that the religion topic was much more "alive" and more heated during the time of Civ2.Sure things are still tense,but its not like in the 80s when everyone had the attitude of "lets destroy the atheists commies"...

Also you have to understand that the computers back then couldn't handle "church" "temple" "mosque" and "place of worship" and all the graphics that go with it...It was easier for everyone to just have a temple...

I also think that espionage was handled great in Civ4...a little bit bare,but it was perfect..this new system in G&K seems a bit more like Civ3 and more simple...when it should be more in depth...thiunk of it this way...you could move your spy around and destroy enemy improvements(forts) or even damage enemy troops.(maybe poison their food/water supplies)The possibilities are endless!

Instead we get Embassy based espionage which is better then no Espionage,but it should be more fleshed out...

I am however waiting to see how religion pans out...

Sorry, I'm not buying your argument that religion couldn't be put in because of technical limitations, or due to controversy (since there was notable controversy around it in IV anyway) and it still doesn't dispute the fact that religion is likely going to be much more complex than IV's, where it was mostly used as a diplo modifier/used in cheap AP diplo wins. As for espionage, there weren't really endless possibilities. No one poisoned water (except Sitting Bull) or destroyed forts. Most people either ignored it, used it for revolts during attacks, and then a handful of people ran a spy economy. That was it, for the most part. If Firaxis was lazy, they could've just imported Civ IV's stuff. Hell, IIRC they actually had IV's religion system in during early testing. Instead, they basically revamped it, and added 9 news civs, and a bunch of other stuff, so it's a bit of a joke to call G&K a patch. If you're upset about how Civ V turned out, fine, but I thought everyone got that out of their systems a good year and a half ago.

 

[Sherlock]

You vote with your dollars. I enjoy these games, I don't mind giving them some money.

Maybe if they think the market is there someday we'll have a sci-fi Civ game (AC2, with some other name, of course).

I'd love to have a second Civ engine game. Like Colonization but not that, something else.

Remember when we had two Star Trek shows on tv at the same time? I wish we had another Civ-type game.