Horse Archer Rush: How many horse archers do you typically build before declaring?

[nate45]

Just curious what other people's thoughts are on this.

Do you attack very early with two or three to clean out any copper mines? or do you mass an unstoppable force of 15 horse archers before showing your hand by declaring war?

Obviously it may depend on which opponent and how defended his cities are, but just pick a number that's typical.

not in the poll but feel free to reply:

do you bother with barracks or stables? just in the capital? do you build any chariots while you wait for horseback riding to tech?

 

[jackelgull]

Keep in mind that I play on noble and I don't generally "rush" with horse archers. They are a side show to my main force of catapults axemen and swordsmen. I send them to pillage and raze lightly defended cities.

Six is typical, but if I find horses fairly early on, I might launch a proper rush with 12-13 of the buggers, and watch them swarm like the horde over my neighbor. Generally I do build baracks and stables because two promotions fresh off the grill are valuable and my main production city can generally host the two buildings by the time I am ready.

I have a fondness for horse archers ever since a Russia game where I shared a large border with Ragnar and used HA's to win battles and take cities at low odds. I mean like I remember a certain siege in which all my horse archers won or retreated at <30% odds and I won that city. Of course, their over all contribution was mainly defensive and the majority of cities were taken by catapults+swordsmen+axemen.

 

[aitkensam]

In the region of 10, on immortal. But basically just enough to take a couple of core cities on first couple of turns of war. Then spam more according to RNG luck.

If more would be needed I usually avoid HA rush.

 

[Gumbolt]

The poll is a touch flawed as on Noble 5-6 HA can take down a few warriors. Where on Immortal you often face archers and metal units. 10-12 HA but it really pends on situation. Ai warmonger AI may require more units than a peaceful Indian AI. Also pends on if the Ai have metal. No metal can mean 1-2 less units.

Also depends when you do the rush. Cicra 1200-1000bc is ideal.

 

[FlyingSwan]

I said 7/8,you,ve got to take and hold the 1st city,the secret realy is to not stop building them till the wars over.Gumbolts right though, this can vary on who your attacking,and at what level.

 

[Fippy]

13-15 (evil D word..)

 

[Mec AntiKythera]

HA rush? I keep meaning to try one of those.



(diapers? developer? disinterested?)

 

[enKage]

3-4 per city, depending what is there. Typically atttack 2 cities simultanously, healthy 3-4 go for next city. Meanwhile heal others / chop more. Trying to keep all the time about 10-16 HA alive to maintain the cycle of half take next city, half heals

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I don't usually rush with HA... but when I do... I rush with 7-8.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Don't really like HAs but if I rush with them I usually build stables first and then build 7/8 to start.

 

[sampsa]

Love HAs Stable is a weak building just delaying the rush. Also trying to build several barracks is a mistake. If you think you have nothing else to put hammers into while waiting for HBR, build a chariot.

 

[Ringo Kid]

I think barracks and stables are a good hammer investment. Because they are built early and used throughout your game. And further, flanking promoted horse archers have a higher withdrawal chance, and therefore a higher chance to survive the battle. So the barracks and stable help make a more efficient use of the hammers spent to build the horse archers.

When the map is right, if I can take the other civs second city with three or four chariots and box him in, I do so- declare peace and then kill him off later at my convenience.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

I think barracks and stables are a good hammer investment. Because they are built early and used throughout your game. And further, flanking promoted horse archers have a higher withdrawal chance, and therefore a higher chance to survive the battle.

Interesting question - what promotions to use, Flanking means you survive if you lose the battle but Combat means you're more likely to win it in the first place .....

 

[Ringo Kid]

To me, flanking plays to the strength of the horse archer, which is mobility. The ability to out maneuver slower stronger troops. Also if your damaged horse archers can heal faster than you can replace them with fresh ones, flanking is to your advantage there as well.

I love mounted troops and I always start with flanking. With lots of upgrades and promotions they can get really fierce.

 

[FlyingSwan]

Interesting question - what promotions to use, Flanking means you survive if you lose the battle but Combat means you're more likely to win it in the first place .....

You promote your first 2 or 3 HAs with flanking to damage the top defender,then combat 2 on the rest.I think numidian cavalry are the exception to this though as they start with a good withdrawel chance,so I promote them flanking to play to this strength.

 

[elitetroops]

Flanking is only better when you are a big underdog, facing very heavy cultural defenses, or superior units. In those cases C2 might increase your victory odds with only a couple of %, while flanking 2 will add the 30% survival odds. However, in an actual HA rush you shouldn't face such bad odds. When HA rushing you are looking to face mainly archers by getting to war early and pillaging metals.

When getting to war early enough flanking should mainly be used against spears (which you should make sure your opponent doesn't build too many of), otherwise combat promotions are usually better. If you delay the war to build barracks and stables, then you might find yourself in a situation where flanking is required on more units, as you have given your opponent time to increase cultural defenses and build more metal units.

In some cases, for example vs. fortified unpromoted archer behind walls, the C2 HA actually has higher survival odds than the Flanking 2 HA.

 

[sinimusta]

My own experience is that flanking units die too often without making damage. I'd rather have my HA die and getting a good amount of hits than retreat without dealing anything.

 

[nate45]

some of you guys build so many horse archers, lol. Although i guess i shouldn't question fippy and his voodoo diety strategies...

But if i needed 10+ horse archers to take a city, i'd just wait for catapults. So i don't take so many losses... i mean, if you need 10, you'd expect to lose half-- is it even worth trading 5 horse archers for a city? I voted 7-8 myself.

My own experience is that flanking units die too often without making damage. I'd rather have my HA die and getting a good amount of hits than retreat without dealing anything.

This. This is the reason flanking sucks.

Also, horse archers already have immune to first strikes, so you lose half the reason for going flanking on them anyway.

 

[Mec AntiKythera]

This. This is the reason flanking sucks.

I see mounted units with Combat promotions die w/o causing damage as well. In my view I trade a few units that survive w/o damaging the defender for some that die w/o causing damage by taking Flanking. If I have virtually no chance of winning then I will choose Flanking, Combat for the rest.

 

[MegaLurker]

Love HAs Stable is a weak building just delaying the rush. Also trying to build several barracks is a mistake. If you think you have nothing else to put hammers into while waiting for HBR, build a chariot.

Stables are good in your best production city. Flanking II, CI/Shock or Combat II right away can save you a number of units.

Remember that against a base strength 3 unit City Raider I only reduces the target's defense by 0.6. Combat on a strength 6 unit increases it's strength by the same amount and applies for attacking in the open and defending.

Not sure why people don't think flanking II is worth it. It certainly is if you have to attack a spear in a mixed stack. HA rushes aren't always a walk in the park against archers. And how exactly can you say you shouldn't get bad odds on an HA rush? Any very common combination of CG/walls/hill+culture and fully fortification bonus will give you losing odds against an archer.