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horsemen dont upgrade to knights?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by esco_, Oct 23, 2016.

  1. esco_

    esco_ Chieftain

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    Im playing emperor with sycthia or watever they're called. Spammed some horse archers and horsemen to take out spain, then turned on india. I research stirrups, but theres no upgrade option on either horsemen or horse archers.

    If horsemen dont upgrade into knights, wtf?
     
  2. kolpo

    kolpo Warlord

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    They upgrade into cavalry this is the light cavalry line, knight upgrade to the tank this is the heavy cavalry line.
     
  3. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    My cavalry or maybe knights (don't remember) upgraded to helicopters which I found kinda weird.
     
  4. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    They made 2 different cavalry lines, one "heavy" (chariot, knight, tanks) and one "light" (horseman, cavalry)

    Heavy line ignore enemy zone of control, light line has more mobility

    The thought may have been good, get some more options in combat, but leaving such huge gaps between unit upgrades is way too flawed execution. It has to be changed, or the heavy line removed.
     
    Reg Pither likes this.
  5. anandus

    anandus Errorist

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    Why do you find that weird? Modern cavalry units are often helicopters, although modern dragoon units center more around mech inf and tanks.
     
  6. MistyRonin

    MistyRonin Warlord

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    In Civ VI the light cavalry line is: Horsemen > Cavalry > Helicopters

    Knights are the second step of the heavy cavalry line: Charriots > Knights > Tanks > Modern Armor

    The real-life traditional cavalry roles after WW1 were taken by:
    - Light armor for recon
    - Heavy armor for "Blitzkrieg" (to open a hole in the enemy lines)
    - Helicopters for recon

    You can see how the for instance the US Army 1st Cavalry Division turned into Air Assault in Vietnam:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_C...st_Cavalry_Division_.28Airmobile.29_1965-1972
     
  7. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    I guess it is just seeing a ground unit magically transform into a flying unit. I would think that a light cavalry unit would upgrade to a fast armored vehicle like the Striker.
     
  8. MistyRonin

    MistyRonin Warlord

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    Strykers are technically light/medium infantry vehicles (or that's how most of the units that use them are called), the vehicle is not used in the traditional cavalry roles. It's mainily used as APC (aka battle taxi). Each vehicle transports a full squad and delivers them close to the battle. If the enemy is weak, the Stryker's weaponry may be used as support.

    Unlike Bradleys that are IFV, heavy infantry (mech infantey), basically the vehicle and the infantry it transports fight together.

    A cavalry vehicle would be the USMC LAV-25 with its 3-4 scouts, that works as recon and flanking roles.

    In game melee infantry uses a Stryker styled vehicle as last upgrade.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2016
  9. BrokenBokken

    BrokenBokken Warlord

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    I couldn't disagree more. The spacing between the units encourages you to use multiple unit types since they come at different times and makes unit counters more important.
     
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  10. StittsvileJamie

    StittsvileJamie Chieftain

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    Makes sense to me. This is from one of the greatest movies ever in cinematic history:
    "The First of the Ninth was a old calvary division that traded in their horses for helicopters and went tear-assing around 'Nam looking for the ****..."
     
  11. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    Disagree, encouraging different units should come from the different units' strenghts and weaknesses themselves, not from having a good portion of your units be useless for large parts of the game
     
    Reg Pither likes this.
  12. MkLh

    MkLh King

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    Before you get stirrups and knights, it's probably best to mass build heavy chariots (with +100% boost), disband your horsemen. and upgrade chariots to knights from the money from disbanding horsemen. The policy that gives +100% for medieval cavalry and beyond is probably far away as it's on a weird religious path.
     
  13. King Jason

    King Jason Fleece-bearer

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    Their not useless. Swordmen retain their strength until they are replaced. Swordmen are +35 and counter Pikemen with a +10 modifier.

    Same thing with Spearmen - They're +25 strength with +10 to mounted which means they destroy heavy chariots (early era) but run even with Horses (+35).

    This pattern is replicated with every unit. So every unit remains effective until it's replaced.
     
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  14. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    Not sure why you'd bring up swordsmen and spearmen in this discussion.

    Horsemen get obliterated by pikemen, which come way before the cavalry.
     
  15. MistyRonin

    MistyRonin Warlord

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    Well horsemen are part of the light cavalry line, the weak cavalry which is meant to attack weak units like archers and pillage tiles.

    While pikemen are from the anti-cavalry line, which have as a main goal to well... obliterate cavalry units, its their speciallity. They should be able to kill armored horses, so imagine what they do to unarmored ones...


    In addition swordsmen are precisely those who are specialised in killing anti-cavalry.
     
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  16. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    But why is this an argument that horsemen should not upgrade to knights?

    You're just repeating what I said, horsemen get wrecked by pikes because they can't upgrade for so long.
     
  17. MistyRonin

    MistyRonin Warlord

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    Maybe I haven't explained myself well enough.

    Horsemen and knights are from two different types of cavalry units, light and heavy, that coexisted through history.

    Horsemen shouldn't upgrade to knights because they have two different and specific roles in the battlefield.

    BTW I didn't say that horsemen get wrecked by pikes because they don't upgrade. I said that horsemen get wrecked by pikes, because pikes were designed for that.

    It's like rock - paper - scissors.

    Pikes defeat horses, horses defeat melee, melee defeat pikes. With the addition that in this case, you have two kinds of horses, light ones that can pillage and move afterwards (horsemen), and heavy ones that ignore area of defence (knights).
     
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  18. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    From wikipedia: Heavy cavalry is a class of cavalry[1] whose primary role was to engage in direct combat with enemy forces

    And that's what horsemen/cavalry does too so I guess they should be classificed as heavy cavalry after all.
     
  19. MistyRonin

    MistyRonin Warlord

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    You said it yourself, horsemen/cavalry in Civ VI can engage in direct combat BUT it's not their primary role.

    According to your argument, should scouts also be called melee units?

    It's like the Civ VI scouts / rangers, the fact that they can engage in direct combat, doesn't make it their primary role, actually they suck at it.


    Now that you searched heavy cavalry in Wikipedia, search also light cavalry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_cavalry

    "Light cavalry often called Light Horse comprises lightly armed and lightly armoured troops mounted on horses, as opposed to heavy cavalry, where the riders (and sometimes the horses) are heavily armored. The missions of the light cavalry were primarily reconnaissance, screening, skirmishing, raiding, and most importantly, communications, and were usually armed with spears, swords, bows and later carbines."


    The only thing that IMHO could be debatable is if "horsemen" is a good name for them or not. But that's not a relevant issue to me.
     
  20. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    But these jobs are most unimportant in the game from the medieval and out. Its not like you need roconnaissance when each normal unit can see enemies a hundred miles in any direction, and pillaging is only good early on. Communication is definitively something you don't need.
     

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