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Horses

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by obsolete, May 27, 2007.

  1. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    Argh. I tend to often have a big problem with not getting any horses near by. This causes a big problem as I often love to beeline for cavalry.

    I noticed horses in general tend to be in very limited supply, and even when the AI has them to spare, they almost NEVER want to trade them out, even after converting religion, etc. Though ONE time I was able to get some from Napoleon after paying rediculous fees and sucking up to him all game.

    Anyone ran into some sort of tricks for trading them besides the norm?
     
  2. GrandSultan

    GrandSultan Full Time Hypocrite

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    Instead of pining for horses, you could use the copper and iron sitting unused in your territory to go conquer the horses. You should have plenty of time to do so before cavalry comes around.
     
  3. Solo4114

    Solo4114 Prince

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    Horses are useful, but only up to a point. Personally I find mounted units to only be useful as border patrol. Unless I was going pillaging, the mounted units are often easily countered by a spearman/pikeman. They do come in handy for taking out incoming enemy cats, but that's about it from my perspective.

    So I wouldn't sweat not having horses. IVORY on the other hand, is pretty dang useful, given the power of the War Elephant. But regardless, infantry (the general foot soldier, I mean, not the unit itself) is the queen of battle.
     
  4. svv

    svv Prince

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    The funny thing is, I usually don't bother with cavalry, but I find that I have 4 or 5 horses in the empire!

    Anyway, the non-horse line is Axes, Catapults, Grenediers, Cannon, Tanks.
     
  5. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    I have a system that slingshots all the way to cavalry on monarch that is many generations before the AI can even get close to them. This is why horses is so damn critical to me.
     
  6. Solo4114

    Solo4114 Prince

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    Well, that's understandable, but at the same time it shows the inherent weakness in reliance on any single stratagem: what happens when all DOESN'T go according to plan? (IE: no horses anywhere near you)

    Personally, when rolling up a random map, I will on occasion open the world builder to get a rough sense of what resources are around me. If my start puts me in a position that is insufficiently flexible (IE: has war-making resources like copper or iron nearby, has no food resources nearby, has no happiness resources nearby), I'll just reroll the map and hope for something better. It doesn't have to have things right next door, nor do I need literally every resource type within a fifteen square radius (although I like to get at least 2 out of 3 major types), but if, for example, one of my leader's traits is going to go to waste for a crucial portion of the game because of my starting position, I'll just pack it in.
     
  7. jackdog

    jackdog Warlord

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    I keep reading threads where people use the world builder.

    Am I being puritanical by just going blind and never changing anything or looking around at the start to check things out. I am not sure I would count it a win if I did this at the start as you know where to send stuff at great advantage over the AI's. Do lots of people do this...

    Mind you just started a game as rome on Monarch, new to monarch and finding it hard, only to have no damn iron, nearest one inside boarder of near by more powerful neighbour, who actually likes me and agreed to help out in an early war with another equal or more powerful neighbour. I am not sure without the early advantage of the pretorian the game will work out so am thinking of quiting.

    :(
     
  8. Solo4114

    Solo4114 Prince

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    Look at it this way. you're playing a game. The game's supposed to be fun. A challenge, sure, but a fun challenge, not one that leaves you slamming your head into your computer desk or putting your fist through the monitor.

    The way I see it, you should do whatever the hell you want as long as you're having fun. If popping open the world builder will be fun for you, then go for it. If you'll find MORE fun from starting from an incredibly disadvantaged position and still triumphing, then go for it. If, however, you're finding that you're NEVER having fn when you start from such a position, then you should do what it takes to have fun. If that means opening the World Builder to get the rough lay of the land (trust me, unless you make a point of it, you probably won't really remember where that copper/horses/iron/whatever resource was), then by all means, pop it open. If it means opening the world builder and saying "Ok, I'm sick of the AI cheating in this specific way. I'm going to nerf them back to what I consider reasonable," hey, who am I to tell you not to do it? It's your game, it's your time. Go have fun with it. :)

    I will say this, though. sometimes it is much more satisfying to beat an enemy you thought would beat you. But sometimes the random map generator puts you in what you would consider a really bad spot (IE: no crucial resources, next door to Monty, no marble/stone anywhere on your continent but Roosevelt has both next door to him, etc.). If you really just don't like your positioning, reroll the map and try again.

    Like I said, it's your game and your fun. So go have some. :)
     
  9. The Flame

    The Flame ^^ bad diplomat ^^

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    That's odd that you never end up with horses. I get them about every game. If I don't get them tough I'll just have to rely on other units. If you have ivory nearby you could make war elephants, and those could conquer civs with horses. Or use other units to conquer the horses if they're that important to you.
     
  10. automator

    automator King

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    Sort of. Solo has the right mindset. Do what is fun for you.

    For me, using world builder, picking enemy civs, and (gasp) using slavery aren't my way. I know that my game could be better if I utilized slavery, but it's not my way. And I've used world builder once (nearest Iron was 15 tiles away -- no bronze -- and I'd just placed a city next to it when two barb axes appeared. I droped a mech inf in there, and once they were gone, deleted the unit). My idea of fun is knowing that I went into the game blind and came out either a victor or a decent competitor.

    Then again, I find Strategy Guide books to be against the spirit of the game too, so maybe I'm puritanical.
     
  11. AThousandYoung

    AThousandYoung Prince

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    Cavalry's great for defending a large empire. Post them in the center of your empire, in a large swarm, and they can get to the scene of any invasion very quickly.
     
  12. FuRRie

    FuRRie King

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    The world-builder is a form of cheating.
    I understand you want to have fun in a game, but I prefer to go into a game blind and see what I get.
    If not everything goes the way you want, just fight harder to get it the way you want. :)
     
  13. Solo4114

    Solo4114 Prince

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    The world builder is indeed a form of cheating, depending on how you use it. But then, I have no problem cheating against the computer in some games, especially when those games seem to "cheat" against me. For example, I played the majority of FarCry in god mode. Why? Simple. It was more fun to me that way.

    You gotta do what's fun for you. Now that my time is more limited by work and other obligations, I make ABSOLUTELY certain that I'm having fun when I'm playing a game. If that means cheating, then you bet your ass I'll cheat. If it means toughing it out and taking a few bloody noses so I can either learn and go back to an earlier game or win despite my losses, then I'll do that.

    Bear in mind that the world builder IS accessible from the options menu by default, so it's not like you hacked the game against the intentions of the designers (though even if you did, if this was fun for you, knock yourself out). Basically just do whatever runs your engine. I'd say it's a balancing act. on the one hand you'll want a challenge. On the other hand, you won't want a stupidly hard challenge, or a challenge that is so frustrating it pisses you off. I personally have better things to do with my time than get pissed at a video game.
     
  14. OTAKUjbski

    OTAKUjbski TK421

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    Even Sisiutil uses the World Builder to find Horses.

    Say wha?

    Yeah ... just check out the current ALC with Persia/Cyrus. Sis randomly generated 3 maps and had them checked by a third party to ensure he wasn't starting isolated and was relatively close to Horses.

    Games are meant to be fun, and losing ain't fun (well, perhaps to a masochist).

    I'm a builder at heart, so I love isolated starts on Prince difficulty and abhor Pangaea maps. I frequently use the World Builder to ensure I'm going to be playing a map I like.

    A little off-topic, but this is what I do: I create 5 or 6 Shuffle/Fractal maps and open the World Builder to see what type of game each is going to lend itself to. Then I save each of them into different "victory type" folders for a later date.

    This way, depending upon what mood I'm in and how long I feel like sitting in front of the computer, I can pick a map I've long since forgotten but know just enough about from the saved game's name to ensure I'll have an enjoyable evening at Civ.

    And, if I do happen to be in a whatever mood, then I'll randomize everything and play whatever new map lands in front of me.

    -- my 2:commerce:
     
  15. manu-fan

    manu-fan Emperor

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    If you don't get Horses, scout around for the closest neighbor who has horses within their borders and take them out. Yes, Barbarians can be more of a pain if you can't get Chariots early, but as long as you get copper (or failing that, get iron), you can build forces enough to ward off the Barbarians AND take out the horses Civ.

    I really like it when I get horses nearby (I usually go for AH first or second to reveal). But, I also don't mind not getting them, because then I have a real challenge on my hands.

    Cheers.
     
  16. jackdog

    jackdog Warlord

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    The point about fun is well made, my wife says i'm a bit odd in that its only fun if i'm on the edge of mental or physical collapse. I simply can't find it in myself to go to the gym and not leave almost dead so I can barely drive home. So I guess I am having fun, or some massacistic version of it anyway.

    Not using slavery now thats a step too far. I don't like cheating but if a game has a weakness in its design then I am all for using it to the max, like basically ramming other cars in racing games to get round corners ahead, if there are no martials then its not my problem!!.

    Civ has almost no design flaws and I guess thats why its so good.

    Have used the world builder a couple of times to see how it would feel as the map looked like it was not going to be good a after 5 mins of exploring, sure enough it was a total loss, for me at least, so quit. would have worked it out and quit anyway but probably saved at least 45 mins of play. So not all bad then. I will still not use it if the start looks even vaguely acceptable.

    regards to all,

    Jackdog
     
  17. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    I say: Why worry about it? Once you get the xpac the cavalry beeline is going to be obselete :lol:

    On a more serious note, I like to cavalry beeline as well. If you don't have horses, conquer them as has already been stated. If that doesn't seem feasible then just beeline grens instead. You can get them even earlier through lightbulbing and although they are slower, they are still a solid unit vs. medeival units. Only cav can really take them out effectively and most AIs go for rifles before they go for cav...
     
  18. Morgrad

    Morgrad Attack Rodent

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    I couldn't agree more with the people who said (w.r.t. worldbuilder) to do what you find fun. I'm am definately a puritan, though - the only time I ever use worldbuilder is once the game is over.

    Balanced resources is another option for making sure you have horses nearby, though I never use that either. =)
     

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