Hot Cop On Libertarian Action

[Mr. Dictator]

Now that the dust has settled here, I'd like to share some very local news.

This all made it to reddit's front page yesterday, so I figured someone else would have started the thread, but I suppose the local has the best position to start a thread on this.

July 4th.
Murfreesboro, Tennessee.

This is a video taken from a sobriety checkpoint on one of the main roads that borders the local university.


Link to video.

Take a moment to admire the teaser image. That smug face belongs to one A.J. Ross, sheriff in Rutherford County. There are three points in the actual video that I believe are the highlights.

It's not immediately visible from the video, for obvious reasons, but it was pouring down rain most of July 4th here. There are a lot of fitting things one could say about that little fact, but most importantly, it's a pretty logical reason to not roll your window down completely. Especially as sobriety checkpoints are for one thing only; giving an officer the chance to gauge motorist sobriety.

The citizen who firmly decides how far the sheriff may look is met with intimidation.

The second moment that stands out would be the obvious cues that the K-9 officer gives his pet. There's no reason for police officers engineering false positives at a simple check.

Third, the cop himself says that the kid knows his rights.

At some point today, the Rutherford County Sheriff's Department has deleted their facebook page.

(As an aside, I'd like to add that Murfreesboro, TN is widely regarded as the center of the universe so events are amplified here by biophysics or something like that. We all have our theories here. Anyways, you may remember us from the entire Murfreesboro Mosque affair.)

 

[Kyriakos]

It is not a good idea to secondguess Garey Busey on a rainy night.

 

[Lord of Elves]

On the one hand there's no particular reason why the window should need to be down all the way. On the other hand the guy in the car should have known that Officer Krupke over on his left wasn't going to take kindly to him trying to dictate the situation and just let him have his way. He goes on to ask pointed questions that he should have known would escalate the situation and frustrates the whole thing.

If he wasn't driving drunk then he should have just done as asked and gone on his merry way, even if Ross' demands were unnecessary.

 

[Aroddo]

hmm... while we all know that US cops are usually fascist bastards, I am wondering about how the drivers behavior triggered the inbred my-dick-is-bigger-than-your-dick reflex of the officer.

First, he refused to roll down his window completely, which was apparently all it took to piss him off.
Second, he was prepared to cite laws and rights at him, despite the cops much bigger bulge in the pants.
That's about all, I guess.

Let's compare to a checkpoint stop in police state germany:

First, we have to differentiate between the different kind of stops, like a regular traffic stop or different kinds of manhunt, with the manhunt giving the police more rights, naturally.
But the usual random traffic stop (meaning you weren't called out for strange driving, speeding or something like that) would look something like this:

Cop: Good evening, general traffic stop. Drivers license and car documents, please.
Driver: Sure, here you are.
Cop sniffs the air for alcohol, accepts the papers, then excuses himself.
Back at the police car the cop checks if there is a warrant on the driver and if driver and car belong together.
Cop then returns, hands the papers back and wishes you a good evening. Occasionally you chat for a bit and then are back on your way.

It takes a bit longer if you smell of alcohol, of course, in which case you might have to have your alcohol levels checked. But in general a traffic stop is usually a quite polite, mild annoyance.
If you are obviously violating the law, then the situation changes, of course.

And if you come over as impolite or confrontational they might not wish you a good evening if they finally send you off. Although truth be told, bavarian cops might just shoot or torture you for no good reason ... they are pretty much americanized.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Isn't it illegal to take video of a person (officer in that case) without the person's consent?

 

[Borachio]

Now that the dust has settled here, I'd like to share some very local news.

Yes, it's an interesting exercise.

This is how not to interact with the police. To save yourself time, just smile and agree with every demand they make, whatever it is.

And, I suggest, if you do have something to hide this is what you'd do.

If you don't have anything to hide, have plenty of time to waste and want to wind your local police force up to the point where they are going to always make trouble for you, then you should insist on your rights, display that you know what the law is, and only comply just as far as is legally required.

The police, too, are in on this game. They know that any serious law breaker (who isn't entirely bereft of sense) isn't going to insist on their rights in this kind of way. So, they're just trying to get this guy to kowtow. After all, the actual powers that the police have are largely illusory: they do rely on people not insisting on their rights. And any such insistence will be perceived as a threat to their power. Which, of course, they cannot tolerate.

Still... standing up for your rights might be a good idea if you're really really concerned about civil liberties (and the like). I suppose someone has to take a stand. But I'm not sure I'd want to. Looks like a really good way of making life very difficult for yourself. Yet I suppose if the Rosa Parks of this world did nothing, too, the world would be much much worse.

 

[Synobun]

Man, I love this surge of libertarianism. Funniest ideology to grace this planet in years.

 

[JollyRoger]

Isn't it illegal to take video of a person (officer in that case) without the person's consent?

The cop is in public, so no it isn't.

As for interacting with cops in America, the best policy is to say as little as possible and not consent to anything. It is much easier as a defense lawyer to get a drunk person out of a charge who refused to take the sobriety tests than a sober person who took them and the video is spun against them. Of course, the policy I outline is for preserving your best shot at winning at trial should you get charged. It does come with the obvious risk of getting beaten, tazed, and/or, including, but not limited to, shot.

 

[BvBPL]

Yeah, that works if you're white.

However, if you happen to narrate a cartoon about a flying blue superman, you may take a different stance.


Link to video.

 

[metatron]

*stuff*

Cops shouldn't lie (not while they are clearly marked as cops anyway).
Cops shouldn't shout.
Cops shouldn't damage your car.

The guy is completely right. He is under no obligation to be particularly nice to the cops or actively help them.

Plus: They are not "cops" anyway. They are a local gang and their ringleader got elected by some hick folk to a local "office".
Actual "cops" are people sent by some bureaucracy in some capital and trained to think, speak and act in some uniform manner, representing the state.
These guys are a bunch of jokers.

stuff

Yes and no. Mostly no.

Police in Germany can - effectively - act in the capacity of custom officials whenever they want to - spontaneously. With that authority they can search you and your stuff without cause in a customs circuit - only that by now there are no more "customs circuits" but said authority applies, well everywhere.
You can also be forced to take street side tests (breathilizers, urin tests, sweat tests), essentially without cause.
You can not be forced to volunteer a blood sample without cause. Refusal of any of the above (or failing such tests) would constitute cause for that though.
Police will do any or all of that. And they'll profile you for everything one can possibly be profiled for, which isn't a discrepency between "should" and "is" but pretty much what they are supposed to do.

All of that happens a lot.
I have no idea what's wrong with Aroddo that he isn't aware of that and/or has been subjected to it.

On the plus side:
1. German police will typically not arrest you for anything but a) serious crimes (not mere felonies, actual full blown crimes) or b) having you do that blood screening if you failed other tests (takes about an hour depending on the circumstances).
2. No tasers. Virtually no use of other weaponry. Typically no handcuffs (you pretty much have to actually try and fight them to get cuffed).
3. They typically don't have dogs. And if they have dogs they will never use them that way. They can already search your car. So the use of the dog comes down to sniffing the interior. At worst you get some dog hair in your car. Using a dog the way it is done in the video would be outrageous simply for the damage to the car.
4. They are generally a lot nicer than the guys in the video. Even under such circumstances they would mostly roll their eyes and be annoyed. I have absolutely never seen a cop shout or be angry like the guys in the video and i have seen plenty of them in situations where that would be virtually guaranteed by American standards.

As for interacting with cops in America, the best policy is to say as little as possible and not consent to anything. It is much easier as a defense lawyer to get a drunk person out of a charge who refused to take the sobriety tests than a sober person who took them and the video is spun against them. Of course, the policy I outline is for preserving your best shot at winning at trial should you get charged. It does come with the obvious risk of getting beaten, tazed, and/or, including, but not limited to, shot.

Why that?
Here the blood sample would be the be all end all evidence.

Anything else is pretty much not considered evidence. It only functions as a means for generating cause for the blood sample.

 

[Smellincoffee]

That cop doesn't look hot at all. False advertising!

This is how not to interact with the police. To save yourself time, just smile and agree with every demand they make, whatever it is.

Complying with the officers may make for smoother sailing, but are you sailing so smoothly to? When police power is abused, as is increasingly the case in the United States, it loses legitimacy and with it effectiveness. Force must meet resistence. We need fewer swaggering cops and more humble-servant Officer Friendlies.

Isn't it illegal to take video of a person (officer in that case) without the person's consent?

It's his car; should follow the same principle as stores secretly filming people without their consent. Besides, the police film these encounters for their protection: citizens should be able to do so likewise. There's no more dangerous power than a legally-sanctioned power.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Land of the free and home of the brave. Expect far more of these sorts of incidents to emerge as more and more people carry around the ability to record what they are experiencing.

I'm just surprised whatever device he was using to record the incident wasn't accidentally dropped and stepped on numerous times.

Isn't it illegal to take video of a person (officer in that case) without the person's consent?

Is it illegal to record public events in your country?

The law in Florida actually stipulates that only one person needs to know that something is being recorded, even in private. I imagine it is the same elsewhere in the US, as well as many other countries where people have basic rights.

I detect a trend with many of your posts. You seem to be quite authoritarian in your views.

This is how not to interact with the police. To save yourself time, just smile and agree with every demand they make, whatever it is.

And, I suggest, if you do have something to hide this is what you'd do.

Perhaps if more innocent people stood up for their rights, there wouldn't be so many storm trooper incidents like this. Sobriety checkpoints shouldn't even exist in any free and open society, much less operated in such a way as to deliberately circumvent the law at the whim of an obnoxious Southern sheriff.

 

[History_Buff]

Man, I love this surge of libertarianism. Funniest ideology to grace this planet in years.

Yeah, I love how the Libertarian response to overzealous police officers is to be the hugest, most self-righteous you can possibly be.

Immediately jumping to that "am I being detained" schtick is approaching "Free Man on the Land" levels of idiocy.

Which is not to say that overzealous police officers aren't a problem; they are. But pointless obstinance hardly seems like the way to go about it.

 

[bhsup]

I disagree. While I personally would probably never do that simply because of who I am, I absolutely support those who do choose to be obstinate and stick to their rights. Just do it respectfully. Asking, "officer, am I being detained" isn't being disrespectful, it's asking a totally legitimate question.

I forget the link now, but someone (forma maybe? Or El_mac?) linked a very, very good 30 minute or so video about this. Some professor giving a lecture. What was just as interesting was the guest cop's comments.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I think you are referring to the most excellent "Don't talk to cops" videos, which I have posted numerous times. The guest cop gets his chance in the second video.

God bless America. God bless the Bill of Rights, and God bless the 5th Amendment.

Link to video.


Link to video.

 

[bhsup]

Yep, those are it. Outstanding vids everyone should watch.

 

[JollyRoger]

Why that?
Here the blood sample would be the be all end all evidence.

Anything else is pretty much not considered evidence. It only functions as a means for generating cause for the blood sample.

Everything leading up to a blood sample could be used as evidence. A blood draw can be fought, even if it appears bad for the defendant. All that other stuff can make an innocent person appear guilty.

 

[Borachio]

POLICE CAUTION WORDING ENGLAND & WALES

“You do not have to say anything. But it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in Court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence.”
The person cautioned is then asked “Do you understand?”


Where the use of the Welsh Language is appropriate, an officer may provide the caution directly in Welsh in the following terms:

“Does dim rhaid i chi ddweud dim byd. Ond gall niweidio eich amddiffyniad os na fyddwch chi’n sôn, wrth gael eich holi, am rywbeth y byddwch chi’n dibynnu arno nes ymlaen yn y Llys. Gall unrhyw beth yr ydych yn ei ddweud gael ei roi fel tystiolaeth.”
The person cautined is then asked “Ydych chi’n deall?”

The only way round this, in Wales and England, is to proclaim in court that the reason you did not say anything is because you do not trust the police. It will not go down well.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I think you are referring to the most excellent "Don't talk to cops" videos, which I have posted numerous times. The guest cop gets his chance in the second video.
<snip>

Yep, those are it. Outstanding vids everyone should watch.

I also really love these videos.

 

[Goodfella]

"stuff"

That's how it usually works here too...