How about new historical civ 3 conq mod?

[Vojvoda]

I was playing few mods in past month which are based on history of mankind and its rly nice mods Worldwide, RARR, and CCM epic mode. i came on idea that could be even better if we put more modern units that we have from DB. and more realistic tech tree that im using for my mod ToMR atm. which has Military , industry & economy, goverment & education and religion tech paths that can make new mode more reachable for many historical units and events.
For example, i made concept on paper atm based on my tech tree dev from ToMR how can be compensate close related mankind eras such iis renaissance and colonial time separated from imperial.Napolenic time which would alllow us more units in game and historical accuary when u can build those units. Last two days i almost sorted entire sys about ships and boats in human history and in which era they fall in. SO for example i have made Primitive military warfare tech from which leads 3 military tech to Ancient military warfare from which leads new 3 or 4 techs until Classical military warfare from which i have 3 new techs that lead (as all oher tech paths) to Dark Ega tech, So i think i can get more accurate unit positioning than in other mods, OFC there is few exceptions as in other non military techs can be units too.

This new mode i based on G20 countries with correction that EU i expelled from roster cuz its not rly state its bassically politacal union of several states so i add few such Balkan nations with greece, Scandinavia from vanillam, Panamerican Union w/o Mexico, Argentina and Brazil cuz they are g20 states or USAN same w/o brazil, arg.... and ASEAN states w/o Indonesia i also would add Iran , Egypt, Israel ?, Pakistan, Nigeria? and Benelux. which would have 27 - 29 factions.

Should some1 would be interested to help me out about this?

 

[Blue Monkey]

SO for example i have made Primitive military warfare tech from which leads 3 military tech to Ancient military warfare from which leads new 3 or 4 techs until Classical military warfare from which i have 3 new techs that lead (as all oher tech paths) to Dark Ega tech, ...

Each civ must research all required techs in order to advance to the next era. It would be interesting to see your tech tree. Even a scan of your sketch on paper would be enough to see how you have set out the requirements.

 

[Vojvoda]

Maybe i didnt express very well because english is not my native language so i will try to explain it this way. I know that u need to move and advance u need to research all techs but i meant to restrict fast progress not only by calculating years to be more accurate i m talking what i did in ToMR mod so far placing military tech separated from education,government,religion,economy techs and entwining them so player when he moves thru first era he cant move so fast as before cuz conditions of prerequisites for tech would lead him to open techs from other tech paths.

As u could see on my mod topic tech tree that i came up and atm Nathiri is doing main stuff placing stuff correctly for mod is separated into four tech pathways: Military, Industry and Economy, Government and Education, Religion and Magic( althou normally in this proposed mod it will not be magic tech). With this tech tree solution i will keep player not only focusing on one certain techs advances so he could fast build up either army,culture or productions he will need to go and open other tech as well and i could entwining them so he could stay little longer in same age lets say he could maybe play more bit in classical age units than before.

As i noticed when i played RARR, Worldwide and CCM the hardest progress was in RARR cuz it has many techs which i like but yet again biggest hold on progress was during nominally thru late medieval era until industrial era. Esp. in period of Industrial era RARR u could mustered decent amount different types of land and sea units, but previous era is very hard to mustered large numbers of sea units so most of the time cogs, caravels and similiar vessels i almost never build when they should be more focus on specific period lets say during medieval time, so that is thing i was thinking little bit to slow down players progress not only by adding more techs by also entwining and separate them from each other in different pathways as u could see what we are doing in ToMR
so atm i dont have main files cuz Nathiri is main editor u could see those tech separation this is ofc not finished it looks much different now but for example u will see that player will keep more time on first era / age than usually and that red-military ,green economy and industry,blue- government and education, yellow religion and magic tech paths and techs are separatesd but still entwine which makes progress slower.

I have paper scan of this new proposal i will try to get at home asap from job and posted it.

 

[Blue Monkey]

No hurry on posting the scan. You've explained the concept very clearly. Your English is fairly easy to follow & understand. Please continue to develop your idea and post more thoughts and progress.

 

[Oni Ryuu]

If you’re interested, you could set rewards/bonuses for players with that method.
Have an independent line of tech’s not required for ere advancement so costly that no one would be able to research them conventionally. Have a small wonder that provides a free advancement that can be replaced with an improvement with “replace improvement with this flag checked” so it can be reused. You could use the background image to emphasise the value of these bonuses.

I’ve also got an idea to tame wild animal if you’re using a custom map.
Place barbarian animal units (horses, elephants, camels etc.) around the map with no HP. Have these units available to all players without requiring any tech but mark them as king units. Have the units upgrade to primitive mounted units (also not requiring tech, available to everyone and marked as a king).
The result would be that you couldn’t build any of these units but you can capture and domesticate wild animals before regular mounted units become available.

 

[Dumanios]

I'll be watching this.

The magic area of the tech tree looks interesting.

 

[Vojvoda]

@Oni Ryuu

Maybe u didnt understand me good. My ToMR tech tree is just way to pin point and divide techs accordingly so the player can have more accurate units disposal thru entire game.I will explain it this way: many mods so far refereed technology development all over the place not divided inside tech paths so u could find postion of military named tech to the bottom of screen etc., then some techs which doenst strictly corespodent to military are given units althou they dont need , which is main goal of my new GDM is correct representation of faction thru ages. My tech tree alllows player more correct techology/unit positioning thru gameplay cuz division of tech on 4 different tech pathways gives more accuracy in placing units correctly and gives more gameplay closer to RL posibilities/history facts, example for this will be presented in my new GDM mod, for example when u look my TT concept for that mod and u decide to play Arab League u will start in primitive military tech will give u access to Sumerians, in Ancient u get Babilonians, and in classical military warfare u will get Carthage which will led to Dark Age tech as last in first age as u can open early Arabs, Medieval military warfare will give u Moorish units, Renaissance will get u less units cuz there was not unified arab state in that time so for example u will not get advanced ships or something like that, when u reached colonial era u may get few arab firearms like musket arab infantry but nor same unit develeopment as lets say mighty Britain, in Imperial time u will get local arab units from Hashemit/Arab revolution against turkey which will not be much and in ww1 and ww2 military warfare tech will grant u access to saudi arabian units which will be focal point for atomic and information age on 4 age/era with exception of few added lets say Iraq/Morrocan units. This way u will have possibility to play more accurate/close to RL history facts about specific area and ofc it will played on world map (atm im trying to find best option for world map prolly Kal-El's map).
On other hand USA will have only tribal units until renessaince military warfare when they will get armed colonist which will make USA very hard to play but yet again USA is far too away compared on map from others same thing will be with Canada, only problem could be Mexico and Pan American Union (they will have access of Aztec,Mayan,Olmec and Inca units) Brazil will be also very hard to play cuz only difference it will have compared to USA and Canada that they will get in ancient military tech access to Amazon tribal units and they will notget until at least rennassaince era new units.
As u can see that way u will have more accurate unit/history facts disposal on map.
There is many very nice tribes and nations packs in DB like lets say Troyans and others that i could use as barbarians around specifc civ which is general idea that means when u take to play lets say balkan states (grece is added into balkan states union) or turkey u will have pelagisan,troyans,iliryans as barbarin tribes with their units around those civs. Barbs will be little more Attack points but less def points compared to your main unit roster.
But it will take time to make this mod its not 1 man job so i hope if some1 is interested to join i would appreciate it. Atm im sorting Primitive/Ancient/Classical military warfare from Medieval with renassaince and colonial being still not focused.

@Dumanios
This tech tree is just first screenshot of first planned scheme for my ToMR done by my friend Nathiri who is main editor with my instructions and his idea i hope we can finish mod correctly or at least bring it close to BETA test. U have entire topic about fantasy related ToMR below in forum section so u can find out what we had do so far. And ofc tech tree concept of new historical human evolution mod GDM below .

 

[Oni Ryuu]

No room to deviate from each nations historical path of development.
I've found that the more accurate to life you make the game, the less playable it becomes. I hope you can develop your mod as you've planed but I think it's going to be a sisyphean task.
With that type of mod suggestions aren't any use, only manpower that i can't currently offer. I look forward to your progress and wish you good luck.

 

[Vojvoda]

I know its hard task for 1 man to do it but yet again i think its very interested concept where u could at least have some kind of accuracy on game ofc i know its not possible to implement all RL facts inside mod/game but yet it will be very interesting when u as i say take specific civ and u start moving thru (look concept ot TT in GDM topic) thru eras.

Nevertheless, i have question for modders atm i using marveleuos ronning terrain but i have problem with jungle terrain it doesnt show on map. Im using Kal-El's 180x180 world map. Can anyone tell me is how to put jungle terrrain for rooning terrain correctly? i copy/paste files from DB but still i dont have jungle feature on map when i launched. I thanks in advance.

 

[Civinator]

Vojvoda, at first thank you very much for your kind words about CCM and RARR.

There is always an interest in new and creative ideas, otherwise we would all still play C3C vanilla (what wouldn´t be the worst when looking at the last versions of the civ series - higher in number after the word "Civ", but defenitely not as high in fun as it is a modded C3C game ).

Some general thoughts about modded techtrees for the epic game:

In my eyes the real art in creating techtrees for C3C epic games is not to slow down the developement in techs, but to achieve that good players must reach at least WW 2 units to win the game without beeing bored. This means in the ancient periods the development must be speeded up, not slowed down. What uses a very detailed techtree of all periods, when an average player with Carthagien warelephants tramples down the world in turn 500 of the early era 2 or to hinder this, must klick 30 turns on his transport ship with movement 1 to reach America and is getting bored - and the detailed era 3 and 4 techtrees are getting superfluos as the game was won in era 2? I see this general problem not only with Civ 3 but also in other versions of the Civ seriies. There is a reason why an expansion of Civ 4 was named to show a life of Civ beyond the swords (without convincing me).

Before CCM good players mostly have won C3C games latest when cavalry was available, in the current CCM version they need armored cars (WWI tech). I hope in the upcoming CCM2 they will need WW 2 tech (when they should still be interested in playing this mod ). There was one CCM succession game, when these players tried to reach the moon - but they have still won the game long before beeing able even to start the space race by achieving to many points in butchering their enemies.

Of course this is only my individual current opinion, other civers see this quite different, and this is good as it is.

There is one thing that could be contributed from the next version of CCM to your interesting project: CCM 2 will boost up the C3C mainfiles in many aspects, among them about 4.600 different units. These units will be available to every modder who has this boost without any problems, as they become part of the standard C3C, There is no more lost time in separately unzipping the files, setting up the units, fiddling with adding sound files and so on to these units. If a modder wants another sound for such an unit, this can be simply achieved in the same way as it is done with the sound-updates of units in PTW and C3C: A simple folder in the scenario\art\units-folder with the unit name, the INi-file with the name of the changed sound-file and the soundfile in that folder are enough. If you don´t want such changes you only need to activate the unit in the biq and the pediaicons file of your mod.

And there is one special hint to a great mod/scenario that is hidden in the CFC Civ 3 maps sector, as you plan to use a worldmap: Have a look at Yoda Power´s Giant Earth Concept Map (256x256), It is not only a worldmap, but also a phantastic mod.

Unfortunately with Kal-El's 180x180 world map and rooning´s jungle terrain I cannot help you, as at present I don´t have them on my computer.

 

[Vojvoda]

@Civinator

I totally understand what u say.

But yet again i must try defend my opinion just to clarify what i think is problematic in many mods that i played and that they are based on mankind evolution: Sys works only when u reach ww2 units as u said in many of mods based on that kind idea, what my idea propose is to have balanced change of power between eras so that true or close to RL history could be represented so players can have possibility to play more interested gameplay. About lets say carthage that u mentioned, elephants are strong when I put high attack or def points on elephants but yet i may not do that i could give high shield req for build elephants or less def little more attack so its editor/mod leader decision. So its very imo not arguable u can always change /balanced unit sys. that way player to have more game not imo bored fast focus develepmont to ww2 era when i reach it i will dominate the game.
I think tech tree redone with pre placed starting positions is key that ensure player he cant development so fast as use it due to historical and pre-placed stuff on map. i presented on main TT concept for GDM cuz i think player would have more interesting gameplay.

For example atm im working to sort out UK units which is amazing mess to do due to there is few unit modpacks from region of modern day UK in DB.
So this is example atm in my unit UK modpack when u open primitive military warfare u will get picts and few early age briton units but no cavalry cuz i placed horse briding tech as part industry and economy tech paths althou it correlate with primitive military warfare/tech sys.
To get cavalry units u will be in that tech paths which is prerequisite for ancient military warfare where u gonna get few numbers of late pict and full force of british-celtic units which will go to romano-british units in classical military warfare/tech sys and main culmination is anglo-saxons in dark age tech which main/last tech in first era. I think its this is nice sys presenting quality of close to rl history facts and transfered to tech tree and player imho would be interested to play this game more due to variety units in first era. ofc this would eventually lead to Medieval military warfare where u will have english units and on mercenary tech u will get full force of welsh units and on vassalage u will get scotish units, bararins villages could be given normans and irish not those generic units from vanilla.

Bottom line i think lack of units in some mods are due to not having tech tree presented as i did for ToMR where u have small tech paths to ensure unit/gameplay sys more workable cuz atm u just skip almost two eras get ww2 era and games finish in IMHO i dont think its good. Just yesterday i played Worldwide for only 4 turns cuz on map i absoluty obliterate AI on 4 era and now there is only 2 AI enemies just because i had overhelming power reached ww2 units and i damn like that mod but kills thrill when u have that kind lets say life or death situation against AI, on other hand i agree RARR is for me very challenging cuz due to high number of techs and complex entwine between them but yet again on unit lvl i destroy AI again quite easily when u reach ww2 units so it kills desire to continue on 4 era where should rly best units should be. So in my view of the gameplay i was bored .
Yours CCM mod is also very hard play due to limits on settler which u made them auto produced. but yet again what i didnt like and killed me interes to play it when i dont have liberty to create my empire faster due to unit limitation, thats only minus on CCM that i have.

I think that mods are here to better represent unit/graphic gameplay and not to restrict it. Nevertheless, i enjoyed playing all two mods and i must say RARR is rly piece of work.

So u can see why i think proposed tech tree pathways are better gives more units, stronger connection between techs and not easy to move on, keeps antetion of player allows u to strategical rly move thru eras u cant hop around the tech tree etc.

Again its hard task and definetily not 1 man job i hope some1 would considered joining me but on other hand i failed to deliver this i would try to help u out vwith advice or some stuff for yours CCM 2 mod especially cuz u said it would have 4.600 units muhahah...
U could take maybe tech tree concept transfer it too CCM 2 with less techs and more stuff in.

And tyvm for 256x256 map dl link

 

[Civinator]

Vojvoda, nothing to defend because there is no attack. As posted, I like new and creative modding ideas. I will observe with interest the development of your mod, but at present there is no change that I can help you. My agenda this year is to finish CCM2, than comes the update of the massive WW2 scenarios SOE and WW2 Global Gold... and there should also be an update of RARR.

 

[tom2050]

Also, one thing to consider, I had separate tech trees per era in the first CoMM3 iteration. You could pick whatever era you wanted to go to, and could research each line. One had units, one had a magical spells, one had buildings and other Civ3 upgrades, etc. The problem I experienced, was that the game did not flow very well. If the AI did not research the unit tech tree, they would get wiped out easily (since units are the main strength factor that keeps a civ alive). Or if the human player did not do so, you would lose the game from being underpowered. It is one of those things, that almost require defensive units in all other tech paths, with offensive units in the military line type of thing. So I went back to a more half-conventional approach.

But I look forward to seeing what you come up with. It will be interesting to hear your reports once you start playtesting this!

 

[Civinator]

Vojvoda, it´s great that you post here and bring in your ideas about modding Civ 3.

Your post is very good for reflecting about techtrees in Civ 3, to discuss diffferent forms of techtrees in Civ 3 with their advantages and disadvantages and may be to learn something new about techtrees. So may be it could be a good idea to open a new thread about "Civ 3 techtrees" or to rename your current thread, so other forum members can easily find the thread by its headline and can contribute their experiences to the discussion.

We could talk there about normal Civ 3 techtrees, complex techtrees as they are in RARR and subera-specific techtrees, as Steph introduced them for his never finished mod:

Spoiler :

We can also discuss about techtrees as calendars, techtrees as calenders with limited space for individual tech research as I set it in SOE, about techtrees that are isolated in 4 independant eras as tom2050 mentioned it and Paasky set it in a WW II scenario and about non-independant techtrees with different (mostly) isolated paths in their eras (so I understand your idea about a new techtree) and may be some other forms of techtrees, that I don´t know at present.

Yours CCM mod is also very hard play due to limits on settler which u made them auto produced. but yet again what i didnt like and killed me interes to play it when i dont have liberty to create my empire faster due to unit limitation, thats only minus on CCM that i have

.

Vojvoda, thank you very much for your feedback about CCM. Methods to act in the situation you describe.reach from building the special GWs The Pyramids and the East India Company (that provide your civ with additional settlers) over "culture-bombing" that can enlarge your territory greatly) up to -of course - military conquest.

I think that mods are here to better represent unit/graphic gameplay and not to restrict it.

Yes, to add something is the common and mostly fitting attitude in modding. The unusual additional step in modding -that can be seen only very rarely- is to cut out something to gain a lot more out of it in other cases. One example are El Justo´s cuts in the trade system in his famous scenario AoI to gain game speed, another example could be my cut-out of size 1 city graphics to gain the option to use a cornucopia of different size 1 city graphics in SOE (or my project of a CCM worldmap) . I will add here some screenshots later.

Edited: It seems the wonderful screenshots that I posted about the worldmap at CFC long ago are all lost. The adress is still there but I cannot reach them any longer at CFC.

i must say RARR is rly piece of work.

Here I only did a graphical update (what itself was much more work as I thought when starting it). The mod itself comes from the great ancient creators of the DYP and RAR-mod.

I would try to help u out vwith advice or some stuff for yours CCM 2 mod especially cuz u said it would have 4.600 units muhahah..

Of course this is very welcome. Thank you very much for that offer. I hope, with all delays that I had in the past for several reasons, the non public test of CCM 2 can start in about 2 weeks.

I didn´t have the time to count all the different units in CCM2- I delegated this task to my computer. . Some of the units my pc counted are currently not used, on the other side the standard Civ 3 units and its expansions must be added.

Spoiler :

As you mentioned Britain, here are the CCM2 techtrees for Britain in era 1, 3 and 4 (until now I didn´t post a screenshot of Britain in era 2. Other civs mostly have other units that can differ in unit stats according to their technical and historical performance):

 

[Vojvoda]

@tom2050

i just want say as u can see on my GDM tt concept tech paths that i sugest are part of enitre tech tree for any era. I dont want to make tech tree which is only consist of 1 type of techs.
Sry if i didnt understand very well your quote.

@Civinator

Atm im bit keen on Nathiri's and my progress on ToMR cuz we still have slow pace of adding stuff cuz Nathiri has also his parallel mod working on.

We could talk there about normal Civ 3 techtrees, complex techtrees as they are in RARR and subera-specific techtrees, as Steph introduced them for his never finished mod:

This tech show is rly nice but maybe somehow complex than what i need, but yet its rly detailed tech represantion of all angles of human techs, This is best to discuss on my TS channel newts.havok.club.
I simply dont know where to start cuz that tech schemes are rly nice , damn german engineering , and i like connections between them i will try to make more understandable tech tree for GDM and represent it here.

The part that i said about restricting / auto producing main expansion unit is something that i dont agree upon i must say if i try to combined complex tech tree scheme and make units expensive and restrain fast or lets say close to fast moving thru eras for players is much effective and closer to real history how to develompent civ in game by player. I said same to Nathiri when i dl his BETA mod files.
Simply i dont like restrictions on settlers simply cuz i think civilization is based on forming civ as close u can get to RL.

I have some rly old files from first CFC DB it stash on me 2nd hdd i found some units that i upload to ToMR unit modpack to Nathiri for my mod unit roster i got few maps as well.

U can count me in non public test if want. And i rly amazed that i actually found on old hdd YodaPower map that u gave me link before.

And now about tech tree that u upload its rly nice i agree very easy placed conncetions, but this is what i purpose/or lets say try to have in my mod.
For example i have atm on paper this qualification of ships (btw this historical qualificiaton):

primitive military warfare consist with techs:

1.boat building -- boat ( prolly 5 different types)

ancient military warfare:

2.sailing --- atheiania sacred ship,
3.seafaring -- transport ship, light galley, beden,
4.ancient naval warfare -- bireme, liburna, penteconter

classical military warfare:

5. classical military warfare - quadrireme, quinquereme, fireship, tessarakonteres,trireme, galley, leontophoros, syracusia,

and this just types of vessels for first era. Not to mention that u have in modern era, Aircraft carrier, destroyer, frigates, corvettes, CDC, LPD, LSV, LHD, LCAC, minewarfare vessels (MWV), cruiser, patrol ship, gunboat, landing craft, attack sub, guided missille sub, balistic missle sub, LCS
this ship types of todays modern navy's. As u can see thats why i almost separeted navy from rest military techs on 4th era. Rly hard work ahead not 1 man job but rly nice idea.

and i like number of units of yours tech tree. Rly u changed it nice.