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How aggressive do you find the AI?

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Recursive, Mar 29, 2021.

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How aggressive do you find the AI?

  1. About right

    28 vote(s)
    60.9%
  2. Way too aggressive

    1 vote(s)
    2.2%
  3. Too aggressive

    8 vote(s)
    17.4%
  4. Too passive

    7 vote(s)
    15.2%
  5. Way too passive

    2 vote(s)
    4.3%
  1. Recursive

    Recursive Covets Lands That You Currently Own Moderator

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    Excluding the voluntary vassalage bug which has been adjusted for next version, in terms of how often the AI is declaring war, denouncing, and appropriately being hostile in the latest version, what do you think? Does it need an increase? A decrease? Is it about right?

    I've made a poll here, and feel free to add additional comments below.

    Note: If you play with victory competition and/or Domination Victory disabled, this significantly reduces AI aggression.

    If you play with only Domination and/or Time victories enabled, or you play with the optional "Aggressive Mode", this significantly increases AI aggression.
     
    Carloshooter likes this.
  2. Milae

    Milae Warlord

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    To me I think early game is about right. I do play with bribed wars off though because I think it makes them declare some silly wars near the beginning that will hurt them in the long run.

    I think lategame they are too passive and it seems like they will only ever declare on you if they aren't scared of your army. So even if they absolutely hate you they will never declare first if you have a big army. Thing is if they are scared of fighting you it will only be worse for them if they let you attack them on your terms so it would make the game harder if they pre-emptively attacked while you are busy elsewhere.
    Also I think they slightly overestimate human military strength on Deity.

    One other thing is that they often peace out of wars too early when they are winning but haven't captured the first city yet (even if they are close to doing so).
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2021
  3. Padre19

    Padre19 Warlord

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    I find the wars a little too short.Peace to early.
     
    saamohod and Erikose like this.
  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So unfortunately a single poll doesn't really capture the picture. Let me put my notes:

    1) Immortal: Early aggression is normally pretty good. If I'm near warmongers I expect to be attacked, peaceniks will expand but will probably leave me alone. I commonly get declared on in Medieval...but since I am usually still behind in science it makes sense for the AI to take a cut at me. Late game is a mixed bag, sometimes its super peaceful, sometimes every AI is just declaring on me it seems for the fun of it. I'll note from my recent game one of my disappointments was Carthage declaring on me 3 times, even though I had a fully stocked army and was doing everything in my power to appease her (voting her way in WC, giving in to every demand, taking her ideology, hating her enemies, friending her friends, etc). I made a conscious attempt to see how well I could hold off her bloodlust with diplomacy....and the answer was not at all.

    2) Deity: Early game I assume I will get attacked by 2 AIs at the same time every game, like clockwork. Whether that's "too aggressive", I mean its deity for a reason...but it does seem to overwrite the AIs normal flavors, whether I'm near Ghandi or Shaka I expect war.
     
  5. Grassland Farm

    Grassland Farm Warlord

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    I'd say it's not too bad overall but I feel like there are a few cases where I get away with being peaceful with a small army and the AI shouldn't let me do that.
     
  6. Recursive

    Recursive Covets Lands That You Currently Own Moderator

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    Based on feedback I've made a few adjustments:
    Code:
    1 - Reduce AI tendency towards neutrality, it was pointed out that it might be having an unwanted effect on higher difficulties
    2 - Reduce human bonus to AI strength perception (bonus is now 50% on Deity, down from 80%)
    3 - Reduce AI aggression towards sanctioned players a bit and vice versa if relations are good
    4 - Conquerors more likely to conquer
    Edit:
    5 - Conquerors more likely to be attacked
    
    Let's see how that plays out. Feel free to continue giving feedback.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2021
    dostillevi, Milae and Ranslee like this.
  7. andersw

    andersw Emperor

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    I find it very hard to call even if I play a lot.
    I feel the hurtful early wars where I delayed swords and get hit by early UUs (probably overextention/greed/bad prep on my side) are most common.
    Post gunpowder ... Im usually in a war that I initiated, sometimes another AI dogpiles but not sure what amount is enough.
    The post gunpowder declarations feels a bit lackluster but maybe thats because I warmonger and have most things needed to withstand.
     
  8. Good Ol’ Bender

    Good Ol’ Bender Chieftain

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    You don’t have to accept peace. :ar15::shifty::ninja:
     
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  9. Recursive

    Recursive Covets Lands That You Currently Own Moderator

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    The peace logic has issues, I need to rewrite it...
     
    saamohod and Erikose like this.
  10. saamohod

    saamohod King

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    Humans don't, but I'm afraid wars between AIs tend to end sooner than they should.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
    andersw likes this.
  11. Ranslee

    Ranslee Chieftain

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    I usually play on Emperor or Immortal - aggression seems to be generally in a good spot. I expect war from any conqueror neighbours unless I really focus on friendship and powerful military, I can generally maintain peace with non-conqueror AI if I don't piss them off and keep a medium-sized military.

    The only thing that ever bugs me about it has been allied AI proposing a war against someone that I can't reasonably reach (with me getting a diplo hit if I refuse), or AI bribing other AI against me even though they can't really reach me. Sometimes I end up at war with 5 AI while only really fighting 2. It's not a huge problem - we just peace out as soon as possible - but it doesn't make sense.
     
    youngsteve likes this.
  12. Recursive

    Recursive Covets Lands That You Currently Own Moderator

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    Distance checks are supposed to prevent bribed wars unless the target is close by. Maybe that was removed when ilteroi fixed the ridiculous prices bug...
     
  13. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian King

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    Recursive, I'm still seeing a lot of early backstabbing due to denouncing friends, so perhaps that's something to look at? I can hardly imagine a good reason to not be able to wait 10 turns before denouncing (afaik, you need to wait 10 turns before denouncing if you discontinue the DoF prematurely) worth incurring a backstabbing diplo penalty?
     
    DeAnno likes this.
  14. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    I just had consecutive games where I barely made it past 100 turns (standard, king) before forfeiting. Playing as Morocco, I was sandwiched between authority England and another warmonger -- Aztecs and Denmark, respectively -- for each game. I was trying to force a CV with tradition, otherwise I probably would've needed to go authority in order to stand a better chance considering multiple fronts and how the AI is much more methodical in executing joint-wars. I even had several strategic units in play, so the games weren't necessarily lost due to military neglect. The boldness / decisiveness of the AI is truly becoming the X-factor that I envisioned ages ago when Recursive first came onto the scene -- I love it!

    To touch on Brian's comment above, England back-stabbed me both times -- though I assume her espionage personality favours that anyway, and in both instances it resulted in her winning wars/cities, so I'd say it was the right move regardless of the diplo penalty. If I'm correct, when done early enough with only a couple civs as witnesses, I'm pretty sure the back-stab penalty isn't even apparent to newly met civs?
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2021
    James Ryle and Recursive like this.
  15. Recursive

    Recursive Covets Lands That You Currently Own Moderator

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    Hmm, that shouldn't be happening. Bug report?
    Code:
        // If we ended a DoF recently and the 10-turn timer is in effect, let's wait it out.
       if (GET_PLAYER(ePlayer).GetDiplomacyAI()->IsDoFBroken(GetID()) && GET_PLAYER(ePlayer).GetDiplomacyAI()->GetTurnsSinceDoFBroken(GetID()) < /*10*/ GC.getDOF_BROKEN_BACKSTAB_TIMER())
           return false;
    
     
    LifeOfBrian likes this.
  16. dostillevi

    dostillevi Warlord

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    It's hard to give more than anecdotal feedback, but in general I feel like the AI plays roughly how I'd expect. Where things seem a bit off is how easy it can be to take a super friendly AI and make them hate your guts with a passion. Buy the wrong tile? Settle the wrong city? Apologize for it? Doesn't matter, they're going to backstab now, no question about it. Doesn't matter how much they liked you before, or how relatively minor the transgression seems.

    Aside from that though, the aggression seems good. I think tactics could use a little work, but I think that's a different topic.
     
  17. andersw

    andersw Emperor

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    I was about to write about this but needed to think a bit more.
    AI's that have very quick success go on getting feed by city capture but if the initial onslaught fails they quickly lose interest to go on.
    I understand that a change requires a lot from the AI but as I see why a lot of wars end early and also why certain aggression is much more successful and have the AI keep rolling.
     
  18. stii

    stii King

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    I wonder if the AI peaceing out too soon is caused at least at part by bribed wars.

    They declare these types of wars pretty easily but after the time limit expires they also peace out pretty much every time.
     
  19. solohard1011

    solohard1011 Chieftain

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    Too aggressive, the AI declares too many useless wars without any chances of accomplishing anything, on Emperor at least.

    I noticed that there are usually 2 ways the AI declares wars:

    1) It placed a bunch of troops at your border and they immediately march to your city and siege it and it can be actually dangerous (which is good).
    2) It didn't prepare any troops and does God knows what for 10-20 turns, after which it peaces out, and no significant attack ever happens (which is bad).

    It sounds to me like the AI has a sense of "wargoal" and this is when the 1st war happens, but it also has some sort of a dumb switch where it declares war simply because certain values got below/above the treshold (strength, relations, etc).

    I think the AI should declare wars only when it has this "wargoal" (aka a city in which it is interested), has a necessary number of units nearby (including siege units - it shouldn't declare without having siege units after ancient era, it should have at least 2 if it goes against the player), and can actually reach you in a reasonable amount of time.

    I assume it might be problematic though, because it seems that some of the civs have an overblown sense of "desired land", which can span the entire continent far away from thei position (IIRC Montezuma often does this).
     
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  20. Good Ol’ Bender

    Good Ol’ Bender Chieftain

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    This becomes really prevalent late-game; I’ve razed cities and resettled them with pioneers or colonists and practically everyone starts complaining about how they were gonna settle there. :crazyeye:
     

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