Lexicus
Deity
So you agree, immigration should be legalized
How big is immigration an issue on people's minds (USA and elsewhere)?
- Thread starter aelf
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So you agree, immigration should be legalized
Archon8
Prince
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I'm fine with immigration as long as people are properly vetted and have some means to support themselves. But just letting people cross and we have no idea who they are or what they're doing? No.
Voidwalkin
Emperor
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Sorta.
Societally, the left decidedly won the battle over language for most of the last ten, twenty years, at least in the public sphere. Opposition on this matter was successfully cast as racist. The move to providing pretexts was common, and conservatives, who tend to be more authoritarian, are always quick to point to illegal immigration because illegal is winning for them just by nature of the word itself.
An insurgent campaign festered in opposition during those twenty years, which never truly went away, but did become powerful. It has seized all three branches of government.
I feel a bit like what I imagine the French felt in approximately 1936. The terms were harsh, the opponent was radicalized but never truly vanquished, and now they aggressively mobilize while hardliners continue to advocate harsh, hardline stances on language, the overwhelmingly foremost grievance.
Archon8
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This is insightful. I cannot tell you how much it irritates me to be quite falsely branded as racist for pointing out economic issues of illegal immigration. The crime aspect isn't even a high priority to me, but the economic effects are. While I supported Trump in 2016 and 2020 in addition to 2024, I had previously not been completely onboard with his stance on immigration, because to me the economic effects did not manifest itself until they did under the Biden administration.
Senethro
Overlord
You and your fellows are complete chumps to look at a breakdown of wealth distribution within your nation, and buy into the 1%'s offered conclusion that it is the immigrants robbing you.
Archon8
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Immigrants are not robbing me. However, the large influx of illegal immigrants have made them compete with citizens for the same goods and services as well as jobs, causing rises in rent and tuition and causing wage stagnation.
Senethro
Overlord
No, I'm pretty sure that is lack of service provision and price gouging. You're falling for the trick again. You are most definitely being robbed.
Archon8
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There has to be a precipitating circumstance to price gouging, like a natural disaster. You don't just have everyone raise their prices all at the same time, that makes no sense. Any single company could defy the collusion, and then take the entire market share. Rather, it is the market forces of supply and demand which increased prices. The rather loose policy of the Biden Administration when it came to money didn't help either, and was a factor in the recent inflation.
Senethro
Overlord
No, there apparently does not. We are seeing that they are doing it whenever they feel they can get away with it, for food prices, housing, whatever. Consent for this is very easily being manufactured right now. The collusion seems extremely strong and not vulnerable to defection.
Example failed market (or not subject to S&D): American healthcare. American bankruptcies are exceptional for being the only nation in the world in which medical bankruptcies (approx. 1 million per year) are over half of all bankruptcies. Some adjacent Anglo nations are down about 10 and 20%, and the rest of the developed world barely measures it.
Why do no American healthcare providers defect and capture the market?
I think we have been through this and they don't. Competing for goods and services? What does that even mean? Too many people shopping? Too many people needing haircuts and eating out? Please show me a community where immigrants caused rent increases or wage stagnation.
BTW, I suggest that undocumented is a better name tag than illegal. When confronted by ICE what is it that is demanded of them? Documents right? And if they cannot produce them, well, it's off to the deportation lounge.
"Show me your papers!"
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This seems like an amusing take on history at best.
Do you think that the numbers of people opposing immigration for racist reasons equal zero? I don't think anyone can claim that.
Which means the problem, insofar as it is a problem, is one of perceived guilt by association. Which is why I keep asking for evidence, so we can have a constructive discussion that isn't rooted in mere feelings, or presumptions of the status quo, or conflict theory, or the like. Policy should be evidenced, no? If you can't evidence it, invoking the justification of popular support sure does work r.e. electoral politics, but that means reasons for enacting (or support) policy are going to involve assumptions. By definition.
If you think you have an evidence-based argument that in no way falls back on any kind of in-group / out-group bias, go for it. Don't moan about what "the left" allegedly has done in popular culture from one of the most right-wing Western countries on Earth currently. That doesn't get your claims anywhere.
Speaking of, I'm still waiting for those links.
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Archon8
Prince
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You want me to explain supply and demand to you? How if you have 100 people competing for 100 houses, they will pay x for rent. If you have a bunch of illegal immigrants come in, and there are 150 people competing for 100 houses, those who get them will pay x +20% for rent.
And they are illegal immigrants because they made the choice to illegally enter the country. Softening the language about it doesn't really accomplish anything.
Zardnaar
Deity
If you enter another country without the required paperwork by default you're a criminal in that country.
Doesn't matter if you jump the border or don't leave when visa expires.
Doesn't matter if you jump the border or don't leave when visa expires.
Visa overstays in the U.S. are subject to civil, not criminal penalties:
https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/...n-a-crime-improper-entry-v-unlawful-presence/
https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/...n-a-crime-improper-entry-v-unlawful-presence/
Zardnaar
Deity
Net result can still be the same? That being deportation.
Senethro
Overlord
And is that good or bad?
What if the border moves or the citizenship moves? Is that different?
Zardnaar
Deity
That's up to the relevant countries to sort out.
I imagine criminal penalties would imply actual punishment on top of that.
You said it makes them a "criminal". Arguing about the "net result" is moving the goalposts, sorry.
Economic impacts happen at the local and regional level. They do not happen on supply and demand charts. Please show me a community where immigrant demand for housing raised rents 20% or even 10%
