How can you support the Democrat Party?

[Lexicus]

this country is going to go much farther to the left.

Personally I'm excited.

 

[Arakhor]

Moderator Action: I'm going to assume that you're excited that the country will become more left-wing and remind people not to explore the other angle.

 

[Hygro]

Robert Byrd was a bad guy who became a good guy so we celebrate his growth and his good deeds, knowing he had enough investment that he could have stayed a bad guy and still be capital I important, but chose good instead. He was a democrat when bad and a democrat when good.

 

[Berzerker]

Nah, they're just doing exactly the same thing as you, and you should own it. Instead you're projecting.

I'm asking people who've supported the Democrats to justify their support in light of the fact their party is guilty of jailing millions of people for drugs, especially black people, while condemning institutional racism. I didn't mock anyone and it was someone on your side who called black people stupid. Didn't you do that too in the all lives matter thread? Yeah, you decided black people were stupid because the hoodie crowd believed the media reports portraying Zimmerman as a murderer, and you're black...

So what exactly did I project? The people mocking the other side project when they characterize criticism directed at them as mocking. They call people stupid, so thats how they interpret criticism - they see it as an insult because they insult others with their criticisms.

I think folks here can vouch for me repeatedly condemning the idea that white Republican voters are "stupid" or "voting against their interest" etc... IIRC, others here have done the same, Farm Boy, metalhead, Tim, and others. I have said it before, and I will say again. White Republican voters are not stupid, or being "tricked" into voting for Trump or anyone else. They have their reasons for voting the way they do, and their reasons are perfectly legitimate to them based on their own perspectives... My instinct is that Democrats could try to figure out those reasons to determine whether they can get those votes, rather than dismissing them as "stupid" or some other dismissive categorization.

My question was to GEFM, but are their reasons justified?

However, you are, for whatever reason, unable to do that for black Democrats. You are unwilling to say "black voters have their reasons for voting the way they do, and their reasons are perfectly legitimate to them based on their own perspectives." Just try it... it might make you feel good...

I already know people have their reasons for voting the way they do (is that what you think we're debating?), I'm asking them to justify their reasons. So far I've been told Democrats give me stuff and the Republicans are worse. Those are reasons, not a justification.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I already know people have their reasons for voting the way they do (is that what you think we're debating?), I'm asking them to justify their reasons. So far I've been told Democrats give me stuff and the Republicans are worse. Those are reasons, not a justification.

One man's "reasons" are another man's "justifications", with the difference often hinging on the entirely subjective standard of whether the person agrees with or is satisfied by said reason/justification. In other words... black people's "reasons" don't become "justifications" to you unless you find them satisfactory... which isn't possible, when you're already emotionally and ideologically committed to the position that there is no satisfactory explanation. For example you think Zimmerman had "justifications" for shooting Trayvon, whereas I think he had "reasons"...

Anyway, for squeezes and giggles, I'll give it another shot. I am aware that the Democrats were the Confederacy's party and I am also aware of the Clinton crime bill and all the mass-incarceration that resulted from that. Despite this, I support the Democrats because the political platform that they currently espouse aligns closely with my views and ideology. Also, people who's political opinions and ideology whom I admire tend to be Democrats. Also, my family members and friends tend to be Democrats. Also, my neighbors and colleagues tend to be Democrats. So... are those "reasons" or "justifications"?

Furthermore, you have defined the Democrats as "evil"... then you say "Give me a justification for supporting evil"... You don't see how fallacious that is? Its like asking "So have you stopped beating your wife, yes or no?" As an aside... @Broken_Erika said something in another thread that I think captures the position you seem to be trying to take, albeit unconvincingly:

They'll just blame Obama, The Republicans, The Democrats, The Liberal-Media Elite and the Deep State.

Your argument comes off to me as a conservative trying to cloak himself in nihilism for some sort of... I dunno, sense of moral superiority? I'm not quite sure how to define it...I'll have to think about it some more... Maybe there's something else going on...

 

[Timsup2nothin]

As an aside... @Broken_Erika said something in another thread that I think captures the position you seem to be trying to take, albeit unconvincingly: Your argument comes off to me as a conservative trying to cloak himself in nihilism for some sort of... I dunno, sense of moral superiority? I'm not quite sure how to define it...

For not knowing how I'd say you did a pretty good job of it.

 

[Berzerker]

One man's "reasons" are another man's "justifications", with the difference often hinging on the entirely subjective standard of whether the person agrees with or is satisfied by said reason/justification. In other words... black people's "reasons" don't become "justifications" to you unless you find them satisfactory... which isn't possible, when you're already emotionally and ideologically committed to the position that there is no satisfactory explanation.

Either something is justified or it isn't or its morally neutral. Mass murder doesn't become justified because I had a reason for murdering a bunch of people... So what is your justification for the mass incarceration of people for drugs? "Other reasons"? If you dont have one, how can you justify supporting the party responsible? How do you complain about institutional racism when you've been supporting the people guilty of perpetuating institutional racism?

For example you think Zimmerman had "justifications" for shooting Trayvon, whereas I think he had "reasons"...

So you dont think self defense is a justification... But if you were attacked and had to defend yourself, you'd be citing self defense as your justification.

I am aware that the Democrats were the Confederacy's party and I am also aware of the Clinton crime bill and all the mass-incarceration that resulted from that. Despite this, I support the Democrats because the political platform that they currently espouse aligns closely with my views and ideology.

Currently? You just started supporting the Democrat party recently? Did they represent your ideology in 2008? How about under Bill Clinton? Were you too young to vote for him?

Also, people who's political opinions and ideology whom I admire tend to be Democrats. Also, my family members and friends tend to be Democrats. Also, my neighbors and colleagues tend to be Democrats. So... are those "reasons" or "justifications"?

Those are reasons if thats why you vote for the Democrats, but did these older voters support the Democrats while they've been committing their past crimes against black people? Currently the Democrat party is incarcerating people for drugs, so what was your justification again?

Furthermore, you have defined the Democrats as "evil"... then you say "Give me a justification for supporting evil"... You don't see how fallacious that is? Its like asking "So have you stopped beating your wife, yes or no?"

Democrats haven't stopped...

 

[FriendlyFire]

Those are reasons if thats why you vote for the Democrats, but did these older voters support the Democrats while they've been committing their past crimes against black people? Currently the Democrat party is incarcerating people for drugs, so what was your justification again?

Might as well ask why Evangelicals voted for Trump, serial adulterer, sexual assaulter, con man, narcissist lier, tax cheat, fraud, non practicing christian
I'll give you a hint look at my signature.

The US political system is broken, thats why you cannot get any resolutions on things like gun-control, healthcare, war on drugs, mass shootings, etc

 

[Sommerswerd]

Either something is justified or it isn't or its morally neutral. Mass murder doesn't become justified because I had a reason for murdering a bunch of people...

Eh... See, War.

So what is your justification for the mass incarceration of people for drugs?

Huh? Why would I offer a "justification" for this? The "reasons" are myriad, and include, but are not limited to, money, job creation, alcohol/tobacco lobby, prescription drug lobby, racism, oppression of the poor, fear-mongering, reducing labor competition, and so on...

If you dont have one, how can you justify supporting the party responsible?

If you're repeating your question I guess I'll repeat my answer, and again ask you if you consider this a justification or not... I am aware of the Clinton crime bill and all the mass-incarceration that resulted from that. Despite this, I support the Democrats because the political platform that they currently espouse aligns closely with my views and ideology. Also, people who's political opinions and ideology whom I admire tend to be Democrats. Also, my family members and friends tend to be Democrats. Also, my neighbors and colleagues tend to be Democrats.

How do you complain about institutional racism when you've been supporting the people guilty of perpetuating institutional racism?

This is a separate issue from "Why do blacks vote Democrat"... for one thing when you say "people guilty of perpetuating institutional racism" ... What people? What are their names? Obama? Is that who you're accusing of being "the people guilty of perpetuating institutional racism"? I need to know the names of who you're saying I voted for, who are "the people guilty of perpetuating institutional racism"... but more importantly, I think this question is really what you are most fixated on... Is that right? If yes I think I have figured out the response to your question.

So you dont think self defense is a justification... But if you were attacked and had to defend yourself, you'd be citing self defense as your justification.

Two strawmen, I'll just treat em' like the crows do.

Currently? You just started supporting the Democrat party recently? Did they represent your ideology in 2008? How about under Bill Clinton? Were you too young to vote for him?

As I've already explained to you:

Now I guess you will want to move the goalpost to Tipp O'Neil, and Clinton (ie the crime bill), but again I didn't vote for those Democrats, because I was a child when those guys were in office.

 

[Berzerker]

Eh... See, War.

War justifies mass murder?

Why would I offer a "justification" for this?

You support the party responsible for mass incarceration... If you have no justification, you've condemned millions of people to jail under a system of institutional racism for no 'good' reason. But you have your not-so-good reasons... There's the difference between having a reason and having a justification.

If you're repeating your question I guess I'll repeat my answer, and again ask you if you consider this a justification or not... I am aware of the Clinton crime bill and all the mass-incarceration that resulted from that. Despite this, I support the Democrats because the political platform that they currently espouse aligns closely with my views and ideology. Also, people who's political opinions and ideology whom I admire tend to be Democrats. Also, my family members and friends tend to be Democrats. Also, my neighbors and colleagues tend to be Democrats.

I already answered your question, you're citing reasons, not justifications.

This is a separate issue from "Why do blacks vote Democrat"... for one thing when you say "people guilty of perpetuating institutional racism" ... What people? What are their names? Obama?

He's one of them... Bill and Hillary are two more. All those Democrats who've been voting for drug prohibition have been perpetuating institutional racism.

Is that who you're accusing of being "the people guilty of perpetuating institutional racism"? I need to know the names of who you're saying I voted for, who are "the people guilty of perpetuating institutional racism"...

You wont tell us who you voted for and I've asked... Did you vote for Obama and Hillary?

Two strawmen, I'll just treat em' like the crows do. As I've already explained to you:

Why are they strawmen?

 

[PhroX]

May I turn the question around? Berzerker, which political party should blacks support? Justify your answer.

 

[Arwon]

Like the entire answer here is "the Republicans are generally much worse and the US electoral system sucks".

I don't think many people are particularly under the delusion that the US Democratic Party as an institution, or many of its representatives individually, are currently particularly robust forces for positive progressive or social democratic change in the United States.

 

[Lexicus]

He's one of them... Bill and Hillary are two more. All those Democrats who've been voting for drug prohibition have been perpetuating institutional racism.

I want to hear the specific actions and votes taken by Obama.

 

[Sommerswerd]

You support the party responsible for mass incarceration...

Mass incarceration didn't begin with the Clinton crime bill. If that is the premise of your argument (it seems to be) then your argument is unsound.

If you have no justification, you've condemned millions of people to jail under a system of institutional racism for no 'good' reason.

I've given you my "justification" you just refuse to acknowledge it as such, which is your issue to resolve, not mine. So this is just another strawman... and my response is "caw, caw"...

But you have your not-so-good reasons... There's the difference between having a reason and having a justification. I already answered your question, you're citing reasons, not justifications.

Empty rhetoric... and I've already explained why. To wit:

One man's "reasons" are another man's "justifications", with the difference often hinging on the entirely subjective standard of whether the person agrees with or is satisfied by said reason/justification. In other words... black people's "reasons" don't become "justifications" to you unless you find them satisfactory... which isn't possible, when you're already emotionally and ideologically committed to the position that there is no satisfactory explanation.

Bill and Hillary are two more. You wont tell us who you voted for and I've asked... Did you vote for Obama and Hillary?

First, what? Us? There is no "us"... Who I voted for is WELL documented on these threads... if you missed it, I don't know what to tell you other than "Ya better ask somebody." Second, as I have already explained to you at least twice already, I didn't vote for Bill Clinton, so what Bill did isn't relevant to my point. Third, Hillary lost the 2016 election so she is irrelevant to your point. You can't hang the "currently causing mass incarceration" albatross around her neck when she isn't even in office.

So you're left with Obama... and like @Lexicus I'm waiting for you to state what specific acts Obama took which made him "responsible for mass incarceration." Take your time.

 

[Berzerker]

May I turn the question around? Berzerker, which political party should blacks support? Justify your answer.

one that doesn't jail millions of people for drugs

I want to hear the specific actions and votes taken by Obama.

he oversaw the continued enforcement of a drug war responsible for the mass incarceration of americans

 

[AdrienIer]

one that doesn't jail millions of people for drugs

The libertarians ?

 

[Akka]

one that doesn't jail millions of people for drugs

Weasely way to avoid to answer. Because you know your answer would be rubbish. That's pretty pathetic.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Did you vote for Obama and Hillary?

Also... its pretty rude to demand somebody tell you who they voted for without disclosing who you voted for. So let's hear it... Unless you already disclosed this and I missed it. If so I'm happy to ask somebody who you voted for... Lex do you know who Berz voted for?

 

[PhroX]

one that doesn't jail millions of people for drugs

And what party is that? Do remember of course that there are only two parties in America which are capable of having any impact on the country so voting for anyone other than the Democrats or Republicans is pointless.

 

[Lexicus]

he oversaw the continued enforcement of a drug war responsible for the mass incarceration of americans

I need more specificity than this. I want you to tell me specific things he did that you disagree with and then explain what he should have done instead.