How did this Civ get so strong?

[Uncle Sam]

It's the strangest thing. I've been playing Civ 3 almost since it came out, and i've recently moved up to Emperor level. (Yeah, i suck, big deal) In my current game im playing as India, and i'm deviating from my usual aggressive playstyle towards being a peacenick for some variety. Hey, i'm playing as Gandhi after all.

I'm playing on a Huge map, continents, 70% water, a 'standard' world.

So things are going well, i'm in the early Industrial ages, but the Carthaginian Civ is ridiculousely powerful for it's size. They only have 6 cities, on very poor land! One of the 6 cities is just on a 2 tile island for cryin' out loud!

They're giving me a run for my money in both military and technology, and i've never seen such a small Civ so powerful.

I'd upload the game for analyzation but i'm afraid i don't know how.

So has anyone had similar experiences, or at least any ideas as to how these guys got to be a superpower? I assume they were able to contact the other main continent first, but that was way back in Medieval times and there's no reason i can think of that a temporary advantage like that would last long into the next age.

However i'm not too worried about them, the way things are going the Aztecs will probably wipe us all out.

 

[xiaoafei]

retire and check the timeline. I do this a lot to analyze the AI behavior.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Assume they did contact everyone first: That means they had a tech lead. Then, they sold their techs to the other AI Civs, getting more money to burn for more research. And a limited territory sometimes helps the AI Civs, because they stop their infinete expansion, and they focus on building something useful. And SEA Civs get a nice commerce bonus (IMHO SEA is the strongest trait in C3C).
Of course, that's just a wild guess

Are they in Republic since ever, and have a couple of nice wonders?

 

[homeyg]

I've never heard of this before. Are you bigger than them?

It's easy to upload a save:
1. Click the Upload File button on the very bottom of the forum.
2. Select which file you want to upload (from your hard drive). Click upload.
3. When it is done, click the link for the 'Uploads 7' folder.
4. Right click the file you uploaded on the list and select 'copy shortcut'.
5. Start a new post and click the 'Insert Hyperlink'.
6. When it asks you to, type in the name you want your hyperlink to have.
7. When it asks for the address, right click and press 'paste'. This will paste the address for your uploaded file.
8. Click 'ok'. There you have it!

 

[Uncle Sam]

Ok, if i did it right here is the game. I played some last night and i the Carthaginians aren't quite as powerful as they where, but they're still definetely up there and their empire remains small. They were involved in a war with Sumeria so they may have captured a couple cities of theirs but even if they did i doubt they were of any use.

Anyone who wants to check out the game is welcome. Also, bonus points if anyone who downloads it can defeat the Aztecs on the other continent. I've been thinking about trying it just for fun but i'm sticking to my (mostly) peaceful ways and going for a diplo win. By the way if anyone wants to play the game to completion every victory condition is on except wonders and Space Race.

 

[homeyg]

Unlce Sam, I don't think you did it right.

Ok, if i did it right is the game.

Isn't there supposed to be a 'this' in that sentence? Was that what was supposed to be the hyperlink? Incase I'm explaining it wrong, here is an article on how to do it.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Huh? It looks fine on my screen. The word "here" is the hyperlink.

 

[Tranquility]

Ok uncle sam...i downloaded your game(woked perfectly...yet i dunno how you got those 2 extra icons). Anyway...really is strange. We're talking about emperor here. The A.I. is a bit more agressive, and war is somehting it'S more prepared at. Now...about your empire, because, in my opinion, while carthrage is a bit of the problem...the other bit is you.

A. You mined ALL your green(grasslands). That's jsut lazyness. Sorry. Look at the tile initially. If, witout any improvements, the grassland tile produces a shield, then mine it. If without any improvements it doesn't produce any shields, irrigate it. trust me, in the long run your cities will end a lot more productive.

B. While watering brown and white is understandable...watering ALL of it ain't gonna help ya that much. Since all plains and dessert tiles produce the exact same thing(contrary to grasslands), you gotta juge by yourself to equalise(or configure) your cities will keep a good production rate, while growing at a good rate.

C. Your letting your governor chose where to put your citizens. While i'm saying to check your cities everytunrns, do check em often to see if there's better land for them. What if you want production but governor chooses growth?

D. As for carthrage military...well i think the game includes naval power as well...so i'd guess it'S caue of tht your equal(i checked with a spy..you have same infantries, but calv is better for you). Still....i would've made more military, not like th upkeep gonna kill ya with all your money.

I wouldn't worry about the aztecs...there on another continent...so evene if war we're declared, i doubt he'D attck ya.

 

[zurichuk]

the word here disappears for me also , until i turn my internet security off, sometimes happens

 

[Uncle Sam]

Ok uncle sam...i downloaded your game(woked perfectly...yet i dunno how you got those 2 extra icons). Anyway...really is strange. We're talking about emperor here. The A.I. is a bit more agressive, and war is somehting it'S more prepared at. Now...about your empire, because, in my opinion, while carthrage is a bit of the problem...the other bit is you.

A. You mined ALL your green(grasslands). That's jsut lazyness. Sorry. Look at the tile initially. If, witout any improvements, the grassland tile produces a shield, then mine it. If without any improvements it doesn't produce any shields, irrigate it. trust me, in the long run your cities will end a lot more productive.

B. While watering brown and white is understandable...watering ALL of it ain't gonna help ya that much. Since all plains and dessert tiles produce the exact same thing(contrary to grasslands), you gotta juge by yourself to equalise(or configure) your cities will keep a good production rate, while growing at a good rate.

Well, you don't explain how Carthage got so powerful, but i appreciate the advice on my tile improvements. Are you sure that only mining shield squares is a good idea though? Seems that if you only do that you'd be losing out on valuable production. Anyway, as soon as i get all my cities connected by railroads in the early industrial i automate my workers because they're a better judge of what to improve than me.

If anyone else wants to critique my game or figure out how Carthage got powerful feel free to add.

 

[Tranquility]

Sorry uncle, i modfied my post, explaing why carhtarge is militarry powerful. I think'S navy, but i'd still make a bigger army. I do agrre with you by sayong he'S jsut about the most powerful small civ i've seen.

Abotu the tiels...yes it's better. The population will grom much more, thusly you'll have mroe citizens, which will add revenue and more tiles occupied, which can add production.

Btw, i really didn't mean to offend you(although you showed no sighns you we're, i'd just like to make it clear). Don't automate your workers. You gotta control them. The A.I constantly redoes terrain while alot of it is still underdeveloped. The best judge there is none other than you. HAve faith in you. Surviving emperor ain't a small task. You've only lacked practice at the improving thing because you did it so simply. Trust me, it isn't that hard.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Btw, i really didn't mean to offend you(although you showed no sighns you we're, i'd just like to make it clear). Don't automate your workers. You gotta control them. The A.I constantly redoes terrain while alot of it is still underdeveloped. .

Don't worry, no offense taken. Yeah, i have noticed that about the AI workers, it's like they figure if they look busy i won't assign them real work.

Anyway, thanks for the advice, CArthage recently declared war on me and i smacked down their sissy army, so it probably was a huge Navy making my military advisor thinking they were formidable. (You know how well the AI uses ships )

And also, yeah i wasn't really worried about the Aztecs, i was just joking around. If an AI is on another continent, you're safe, because teh AI is completely incompetent when it comes to amphibious invasions. And i usually build bigger militaries but i'm trying to play a peacenick in this game.

 

[Samson]

A. You mined ALL your green(grasslands). That's jsut lazyness. Sorry. Look at the tile initially. If, witout any improvements, the grassland tile produces a shield, then mine it. If without any improvements it doesn't produce any shields, irrigate it. trust me, in the long run your cities will end a lot more productive.

Interesting idea. Why do you do this? I do the exact opposite by defualt, mine normal grassland and irigate bonus grassland (once out of despotism). This way under the golden age or mobilisaion you get an extra sheild from each.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Don't understand that as well - care to expand?

And in general, there is no such thing as 'always'

 

[Samson]

Don't understand that as well - care to expand?

Do you mean me? if so, what I mean is that I try to get all terain that can to produce at least one sheild, so that when you get to the golden age or you mobilize, it produces one extra. This means that I must mine non-bonus grassland. If I want extra food, I will irrigate bonus grassland.

Perhaps an example. If I have 2 tiles, a normal grasslang (NG) and a bonus grassland (BG). I want to get 2 shields and 5 food, so I must irigate 1 and mine the other. Without either golden age or mobilization, it make no difference which I do. However under either of these, I will get one more sheild by mining the NG and irrigating the BG than vice versa.

Hope this explains it, let me know if not. ANd if you were not talking to me, the I shall just shut up

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

@if_only_we_were:
Sorry, should have been more clear - fact is, I 100% agree with you, I was aiming at Tranquility. All terrain should produce at least 1 shield for exactly that reasons .

 

[alja]

I had similar games where Dutch and Ottmans got very powerful. The Ottmans had a nice place but the Dutch had a few cities in their starting area, the rest was conquered or founded accross the world and their empire was totally spreaded. Since the early game the Dutch were in war and in all cases soon took the upper hand. If I would have had such an empire, I would have been totally lost due to corruption. Difficulty level was King, I think.

Before 0 AD the Ottmans and Dutch were starting war against each other. I saw fleets with 20 Dutch ships arriving, spitting out units on the Ottman territory. Surprisingly none of them did fall back in tech even after centuries of war. After 1000 years of war, the Ottmans went to Faschism while Dutch became Monarchy (or the other way around, not sure any more). Still they continued to pump out units like mad and researching like hell. The long war didn't seem to bother them too much while I was waiting for them to slow down. In this area I was starting to catch up not because they got weaker but because I had used 1200 years improving my infrastructure and cities. 1500 I took over the tech lead.

I had 30% of the land (assimilated one direct neighbour), good cities and access to all resources. Still I couldn't believe how the Dutch with their scrap cities could product all these units and research so fast. They produced so many units that I got nightmares, much more than I could have ever produced in this game.

For testing I provided knowledge about tanks to the Dutch and attacked a small island with 4 scrap cities. In the following turn I faced already 4 tanks!!! How can 4 scrap cities product 1 tank/turn. No need to mention that when I checked 1-2 rounds later after this event my spie told me about more than 32 tanks on the Dutch site. Crazy.

Looking at the map and Dutch cities I never understood this game. Also there were much better nations (at least at the beginning, until 0AC), suddenly becoming weaker and weaker. The explanation I have is that these have not been to war, building more units than they could support, reducing the science speed to afford old units, resultiung in very bad economics. Have noticed this a few times that a war in a certain period of time can actually really boost a nation even if there is no gain of territory but they get probably rid of all the scrap old units and reduce their costs.

 

[Tranquility]

Ok. I jsut think that a city should have good growth as well. I like to make my cities grow(for later). I useusally have at end game scities with like 32 people and still growing in the industrial era. Of course, i mine all my tiles in despo(irrigation aiN,t gonna help). What i'm jsut saying is that i think growth is also important.

I know my technique is weird to you, i dunno alot of people who do what i do. I just think a citie. I think that in the long run cities that have high pop have produce just as much production then an all mined green citie.

As for the golden age thing, when i trigger a golden age(ancient era, middle ages), usually all my tiles are mined, because i mined all my tiles earlier(during my despotism), so when a golden comes, i produce alot. I admit my owkrer strat is more useful for later on the game.

Let me delve a bit...Now i can undertand why you mine green. I mean, one citizen eats to food, and green produces 2 food, so the flow goes on. However...it only works that way if it's an all green citie. Most of the time, there a mountain, hill, maybe a plain around that reduces your growth. But let'S say you have a citie with only grassland. What happens when all your tiles are filled? The population does other stuff, like being tax collectors or scientist, civil enginers, and so on. If the citie has high growth, they'll be more of those scientis, engineers and whatever you want.
Personnaly, i like those little guys(advances my science rate alot).

Who knows...maybe i'm wrong. Maybe your way is better. I just think a citie should have a good balance of growth and production. I believe ision wrote something about it in his article on how to mange the jump form monarch to emperor(i'm at monarch diff btw, so maybe i lack the experince you have). Anyway, i guess will never know about who's right about it.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Well i'm glad my incompetent tilework has sparked such a debate.

 

[Chieftess]

Ok uncle sam...i downloaded your game(woked perfectly...yet i dunno how you got those 2 extra icons). Anyway...really is strange. We're talking about emperor here. The A.I. is a bit more agressive, and war is somehting it'S more prepared at. Now...about your empire, because, in my opinion, while carthrage is a bit of the problem...the other bit is you.

A. You mined ALL your green(grasslands). That's jsut lazyness. Sorry. Look at the tile initially. If, witout any improvements, the grassland tile produces a shield, then mine it. If without any improvements it doesn't produce any shields, irrigate it. trust me, in the long run your cities will end a lot more productive.

On the contrary, if it's a core city, all mines ARE more productive. 20 tiles, and maybe 5 are bonus (that's 25spt, not counting ones in your cities). Irragate those 15 tiles, and your production drops to 10spt. Which is more productive? Yes, your city will have more than 21 citizens (being it's the industrial age -- haven't looked at the save yet), but that's only good for commerce, science, and production only when you're building wonders, not units, which is what's needed. In a ultra-corrupt city, yes, irragate more than you mine.