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How do I get into this game?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by InDubioProReo, Dec 12, 2017.

  1. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I loved V and disliked the art in VI but after about 100 hours play I was used to it and due to the mechanics cannot go back to V. Going for say 20 cities is very strong but not required to win. People have won deity with 1 city so tall can work, it’s just more challenging.
    Some people will never like VI it’s the way of human nature, I just could not get into IV.
    Emperor has proved to be the overall best level to play. I think that around this level one has a wider variety of choice as to how to play the game. How you like to play does dictate your style so to a degree you really need to find your own style.
    Some general advice
    The first part of the game is about getting your settlers out there amd an army built to defend yourself. Do not worry about building too much initially, getting about 5-10 cities either home grown or via conquest is important.
    Then you can build your cities up with the right districts for you and start pushing for your victory type.
    A lot of how well you can do this seems to be based on getting eurekas from both trees as it is an efficient way to play.
    Early culture is more important than early tech and reaching Political Philosophy and Feudalism are key milestones.
    Tech is powerful later so you do need to push campuses at some stage. The path through the tech tree is very dependent on your intentions.
    Last bit of fast advice is do not forget City States amd envoys, especially science, culture and money CS are strong. 3 envoys in a single science CS gives +2 to each campus you have built, if you have built 10 then it starts building up fast.

    The above is for early learning play, it includes key points about being efficient but there is a lot more.
    Probably the best thing I read early on a year ago was that there are no % growth values that encourage tall play so there just is not really much benefit in doing so.
     
    CPWimmer and sonicmyst like this.
  2. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Warlord

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    Three letters: ICS. This incarnation's basically about spamming cities. The answer to "how many cities to build" is "until you run out of space". City placement is important, but at the same time there's no real cost to having excess cities so you aren't going to suffer penalties from building cities in the wrong spots (unless they prevent you from building cities in the right ones), and as they can give you access to extra commercial districts (=trade routes) you actively want to do that later in the game. You obviously want to prioritise the better spots (those with production, in particular) first.

    The main features other than resource-generating tiles to be aware of are mountains (which provide adjacency bonuses for campuses and holy sites) and rivers (which provide both housing and adjacency bonuses for commerce districts), but this isn't very different from Civ V where you wanted to settle these areas anyway. District placement is more interesting than city placement and the two aren't as strongly linked as you might expect. One mistake I made early was to overprioritise adjacency bonuses and not place a district in a city that provided it with no bonuses. Although +2-3 science is a big boost in the earliest game stages, in the long run GP points and buildings (and trade routes from those districts) are much more important. If your favoured city spot isn't great for a campus, build one anyway.

    Although there is a nominal public order system you aren't going to have the physical space to build enough cities to have amenity problems unless they grow very large. Unless you go on a conquering spree you'll get annoying notifications from time to time that you're short of amenities (second and third tier amenity buildings come very late unless you're focusing heavily on culture), but it won't have meaningful game effects. Amenities beyond those you naturally get from improving resources only really become significant during war, as they're needed to mitigate war weariness - you have to have pretty large late-game cities for them to be relevant in peacetime.

    In my experience science is essentially "get the eureka-less techs that fit your starting location" (basically, mining if you have hills and minable resources, Animal Husbandry if you need pastures or are likely to need Archery quickly, Pottery - the prerequisite to Irrigation and Writing - in any other situation), then just follow the eurekas you happen to obtain or are able to seek out. Even if that's not the optimal tech path in a given situation, you save so much science doing that that it's actually quicker than following the optimal path most of the time.

    If you want to go for a religion victory later on you need to commit fairly early to Astrology in order to get at least one Holy Site up (and associated Great Prophet points), since the alternative route (getting Political Philosophy so you can use the Great Prophet point policy) is too slow for civs that don't have a natural wild card slot early in the game, but that's the only exception.

    This is both a strength and a weakness, as I mentioned: on the one hand it promotes flexibility, but on the other it really isn't punishing enough for making the 'wrong' call. You can pretty much random walk to victory at least up to Emperor once you have a basic handle on the mechanics and start spamming cities, so you don't need to think in terms of build orders.

    One wrinkle it took me a long time to learn was the tourism victory - I lost at least one game to a culture victory from an opponent simply because I didn't understand the interface. This can be a trap for Civ V veterans as the system looks superficially similar but has important differences. In particular, there's no cultural defence mechanic any longer - I expected for a long time that 'domestic tourism' was influenced by having high culture output, as in BNW, but in practice it's entirely unrelated.

    The only relevance your overall culture output has to a culture victory is that it gets you through the civics tree faster - it isn't related to your tourism output at all (although specific culture-generating buildings and improvements are, either by generating tourism directly or by providing Great Work or artifact slots). Domestic and international tourism are both generated from the tourism stat alone.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  3. CPWimmer

    CPWimmer Chieftain

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    This comment, in my opinion, is somewhat incorrect. Each civ has a cultural defense, but it is only really important if it is the highest (or second highest) Culture. Essentially a tourism victory requires that a Civ has higher Tourism than every other Civ's Culture. So I guess, if you don't have a very strong culture, improving it to third or fourth best would have no defensive impact - but to say your culture is unrelated to defense would be inaccurate. Essentially to have control over defending against tourism, your culture needs to be the high water mark for the other Civ's to beat.

    @Victoria help me out here, but isn't your culture (assuming it is higher than anyone else's) still the target that someone else has to beat with their tourism to get a Culture Victory?
     
  4. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Warlord

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    That's the way I expected it to work, and the way it worked in Civ V, but it doesn't appear to be the actual mechanic. In order to win the civ needs to beat the highest domestic tourism (the number shown below the civ name on the Cultural Victory screen), and like you I'd assumed this was generated by high culture as in Civ V, to the extent that I went the spaceport route just to get the culture boost from Moon Landing.

    Playing further, it seems that domestic tourism is entirely a function of your tourism output, not your culture - in other words tourism is both the cultural offence and the cultural defence stat, although the way it generates the latter is opaque.
     
  5. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    It is easy to misunderstand others words or their intention but in essence you are correct @CPWimmer

    Domestic tourism is 100% based on culture output. It is simply that every 100 culture you produce provides 1 domestic tourist. If another civ is getting early tourism and may win a cultural victory your best defence is to pile on the culture.

    Once you are starting to power up the tourism to win a CV as the main CV aggressor your domestic tourists are not so important (but can be if everyone else’s is low). At this time you are concentrating on high tourism but also keeping your oppositions culture low with tactics like GP denial on war.

    A rough guide on a standard size and pace game with 7 opponents in play is 200 tourism output is beating 100 culture output.

    Incorrect, this was thoroughly and quite rigorously tested by myself a year ago. I even remember the day I discovered eurekas counted toward it as the feudalism eureka gives a lot early.
    However I always am happy to be convinced Phil... I can try and drag out my old working thread which should convince you, it was rather detailed.

    A simple defence is to say, get 0 tourism, build no wonders until turn 100 and then look at your domestic tourists. It will be around the 10-50 mark.

    EDIT: I have found the post. How Domestic Tourism is generated
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    liv and Lanthar like this.
  6. InDubioProReo

    InDubioProReo Chieftain

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    Thank you for the explanation. I think I'll wait until next expansion, I heard Loyalty mechanic could balance out the ICS. I really do not like the ICS style. I like my cities specialized and well-grown, lot of population. I don't like a million small cities with 3-4 pop and barely having pop to build stuff. It feels like the decision to build a new city becomes trivial. I like empire-building part of civ, going through the ages, making my cities bigger, building important buildings and taking my time. Maybe I should stick to Civ V in the meanwhile.
     
  7. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Warlord

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    Thanks for this. I don't suppose it ever occurred to Firaxis to actually provide information like this themselves, at the very least to identify the underlying resource used to generate 'domestic tourism'? Let this be a lesson for the original poster: Civ VI can seem inaccessible less because of its mechanics than because it has an atrocious UI (and a pretty lousy tutorial to boot).

    When I say 'ICS' it's essentially shorthand for 'fill every available spot with cities'. In practice this probably won't get you more than 7-8 before you run out of space (although this may change with the new start location algorithms coming in the expansion, which are supposed to result in civs starting further from one another), and I count it a success if I have 6 by turn 100 or so (after which it becomes difficult to expand without conquest, although there will still be gaps to fill within your territory).

    In principle the amenities system would eventually kick in to curtail expansion - the only reason it doesn't is that you don't have that much space to expand into. City states also get in the way and help to limit the available land area - this isn't ICS in the Civ III sense, and most of my cities will grow above 10 pop over time. There are later-game eurekas that reward hitting certain city sizes (I haven't yet got the one for hitting 15 pop, though).

    I would agree though that Civ VI doesn't strongly reward specialisation simply as a function of the district system. The game encourages you to maximise the number of districts you can place in every city and you can't duplicate districts in a city. This sets a cap on the number of specialist buildings, and specialist workers, you can have. Certain districts are intrinsically higher-value than others as well. A city that has a campus isn't really a specialist science city, as it will probably also have some combination of industrial, theater and commercial districts as well.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  8. Kyro

    Kyro Chieftain

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    For transitioning to Civ 6:

    Forgo any notion of creating big and powerful cities, multiplicative bonuses are gone, population growth is intentionally handicapped to prevent that.
    Forgo any idea that any sort of investment is going to pay off in this game, think more short term. If it's only going to give your Civilization an advantage after many turns, that's a clear sign you're on the less optimal route.
    Forgo Religion unless going for a Religious Victory.
    Forgo most of the wonders.
    Forgo the acquisition of most great people.
    Forgo building things yourself, embrace city capturing, that's more efficient.
    Forgo peace play, war is the new peace.
    Forgo Diplomacy after penalties kick in, warmongering profits more.

    Edit: Everything I've listed to forgo so far is what I enjoyed about Civ 5. If that's what you're hoping for in Civ 6 I'm sorry to disappoint; Civ 6 is a terrible wargame wannabe trying to cling on to its less war hungry players through tricks and illusions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  9. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    I echo some of the sentiments expressed earlier with regards to the look of the game--it didn't feel right compared to the more realistic Civ V, which had less caricatured leaders and immersive leader backgrounds with dynamic interaction (instead of cutscenes). In other respects Civ VI is a bit lacking--no Hall of Fame, UI is not user-friendly or useful (building queue of 1 is just one aspect), diplomacy is borked due to unsubtle agenda reactions (Mvemba criticizing you just 5 turns after you found a religion for not spreading it to him when he's a continent away), and many game mechanics seem hidden and not adequately explained in the Civilopedia. Also the quotes are overly negative or failed attempts at humor, far from the mix of gravitas and tongue-in-cheek humor of Civ IV and V quotes.

    This being said, VI has had nice ideas and lots of potential for future expansions. It may be worth waiting before trying to get into Civ VI. If you really must try to get into it now, you should try shooting for the weird achievements or (if you have DLC) playing some of the turn-limited scenarios (my favorites are the Australia and Nubia scenarios).

    Beyond that, you can practice city district placement with Germany or Japan, early conquest with Sumerian or Scythia, culture victories with Kongo or Brazil, etc. Learning and practicing the uniques of each Civ brings some satisfaction, even if some civs like Greece are very limited, others overloaded with complex uniques (Poland), or others too one-sided (Macedonia).
     
  10. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Warlord

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    Or Alexander invariably criticising you for not being at war the turn after you make peace ... with him. I've said it before: Ed Beach's approach to game design has all the subtlety of a hammer. In both BNW and Civ VI he showed off a new game system by ramping its exposure up to 11 - we saw that with ideology, with trade, and now with districts, eurekas and agendas. At least of those, agendas have no very meaningful game impact.

    By this point anyone who hasn't already looked into it should be waiting for the expansion anyway simply because it's only 5 weeks away.
     
  11. treadwin

    treadwin Chieftain

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    I find the hardest thing about getting into this game is the map generator.

    For part of the game that took a fair amount of effort, it is a real disaster. The bigger the map size, the more difficult it is to get an interesting game. Aside from the acknowledged "clumping of civs which is almost 100% at huge size, the game more or less hinges on having one (or preferably more) high production hexes in your starting city. Several of the civs also demand terrain suited to their special abilities, without which they give up too great an advantage to other civs. These are particularly difficult to get if the terrain involved is desert, or sea. Finally the somewhat arbitrary decision to make mountains the font of all religion or knowledge means that starting location dependency becomes even more dramatic.

    It is very difficult to decide whether a start is "unfair" or just requires an adjustment in strategy, without playing it for a long while, particularly when you start playing. For a new player, they can invest a hour or two on a game that was unwinnable at the outset, even at fairly low difficulty levels. It is very easy to "roll" 5 of these unwinnable worlds in a row. Similarly, get a great world, and you can win at a higher difficulty level than your ability level merits and then get frustrated with the game for hours, as you try to repeat your feat.

    People tend to go on about the artwork, but for me the worst aspect of the game as far as getting into the game is concerned, is the map generator, and its propensity to deliver unequal, boring, similar games.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  12. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Well, if you have no religion but have taken a few religious cities you have enough faith to buy a GP or 2. As you do not need a district of that type to do so it’s quite nice shopping
     
  13. treadwin

    treadwin Chieftain

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    I think I agree with most of what you say, but I'd also say that the design was unintentional.
     
  14. trev1972

    trev1972 Chieftain

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    I think its one of those things, you either love 1UPT and hate stacks of doom or vice versa.

    My main problem with 1UPT isnt so much the traffic jams, its that the AI struggles to use 1UPT

    I miss the real threat the AI had in civ iv, i lost really well defended cities in in civ iv to surprise amphibious attacks.
     
    saudarkar likes this.

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